Some may have seen this block from last Sunday, but, in case some of you missed it --- here is a brutal peelback block by Seahawks WR Golden Tate on Cowboys LB Sean Lee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPjhw-k8WXU
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Should've been ejected for that crap, what he did was akin to spearing someone. Led with the crown of his head and everything. Golden Tate- "I can't do anything as a receiver for the Seahwaks so I'll just start ramming people with my head."
You've gotta be kidding me William...
That was purely legal. Lee said after the game he was hit in the chest not chin/helmet/face. Tate came from the front. As urban would said,...that was a grown ass man play
As a life long Seattle Seahawk fan, that is about the only thing during the crap PC era I have had to cheer about. Tate put a wicked but legal hit on him.
Tomorrow
Then why did the refs throw a flag on Tate? He speared Lee in the chest, it doesn't matter where you spear someone, spearing is spearing. That wasn't a "grown ass man play", that was a punk ass play. This is why football has so many more head injuries than rugby. Because you get roided up idiots (yes I'm making a generalization) that have no clue how to tackle or block, so they use their helmet. Take away the helmet and you change everything.
Pause the video at 46 seconds, he's clearly leading with his head.
they threw a flag on the patty cake push out of bounds on the qb... didnt they? That hit was legal, IMO. Good hard hit. keep your head on a swivel Lee. Now you know
No the announcers said it was on Tate. Wilson wasn't touched out of bounds.
that was a completely clean hit, people need to suck it up. Linemen lead with their head every down. That's just a grown ass man crack-back.
Don't give up... Don't ever give up.
If you don't want to get hit like that, don't play in the NFL and go get an office job somewhere.
Interesting picture angle William. From that angle, yes, it looks vicious and illegal. Sorry but you are actually dead wrong about form on this play. This is exactly, EXACTLY how you throw a block in the NFL, College, High School, or Pee Wee levels of football. He uses his head but he doesn't lead with it. I would have liked to see him have his head up a little higher but he is not leaving his feet and he isn't looking at the ground (tell tale sign of a spear),He hits the man underneath the chin and gets more chest than head. This is a devastating hit but on that is perfectly legel and properly executed. This is text book, black out blocking at its finest. Shame on Lee for not keeping his head on a swivel. This was during the play and it sprung Wilson-this isn't like Warren Sapp taking out a lineman against GB a few years back-this was part of the current play. Head on a swivel is rule #1 on busted plays. If anything, Lee committed the error in form.
This should not have been flagged. He didn't leave his feet and this isn't a 'spear' by any means. Any time a player spears an opposing player, that guy risks as much injury as the person he is hitting. Tate is in no way endangering himself here because he isn't 'crowning' the guy. The flag was thrown because refs are all airing on the side of penalty whenever contact like this is made. He catches him below the chin, on the numbers and has his arms up. Guys this is taylor made blocking. This is how its taught. Look out next time Sean.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
They're taking all sorts of measures to protect "defenseless" WRs going over the middle to chase a ball...DB comes flying head on and de-cleats him and that's no question protecting our pretty boy receivers by throwing the flag every time (remember Etienne Sabino's unnecessary roughness penalty in the Miami game for essentially tackling the receiver while he wasn't looking?). Yet the same pretty boy receivers can come flying in and blindside a linebacker who doesn't see him coming while he's chasing the ball.
Brewster, that picture shows Tate looking at the ground, contacting Lee in the upper chest/neck/chin within his helmet. If anything your angle seems to be more proving than mine.
Wow!! What a great hit. Hard nosed football.
@Brewsters -- I personally don't care if they decide to flag these or not, I just want to see consistency and if we're going to go to great measures to protect defenseless receivers, what's really the difference here.
As far as that picture...it certainly looks to me like his head is pointed straight down and the crown of his helmet is the first thing making contact. Not saying whether or not this should be flagged I'm just not sure how you can look at that and say that his head isn't down and he's not leading with his helmet. Sure he didn't leave his feet but you can still launch yourself into a larger massed object without leaving your feet.
Well we differ on the definitition of spear. He's hitting with his head, I'm not disputing that. A spear to me, which should be illegal, is leading with the head and only the head. He uses his helmet but as I said before, isn't looking straight down and doesn't risk doing damage to his own neck from that angle. We are probably arguing semantics here. The only penalty he could have committed was leading with the head-that's where there question is. I don't think either of us are arguing where Lee was hit. Tate's placement is fine by me, that really is where you aim on a block or tackle. I conceded a little that I would have liked to have seen a little more facemask than forehead but that hit is not this hit.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
@ William -- I agree, Brewsters' pic looks far more vicious and damning than yours does.
They just need to teach not to do that in general because not only is that how you hurt someone else...that's the #1 way to paralyze yourself on the football field!
I disagree. With his feet planted and arms engaged, it looks like a guy using his helmet as part of the process of a throwing a devastating block, but not leading with his head the way other guys have been nabbed for doing.
Its impossible to not lead with your head in some way shape or form either tackling or throwing a block like this. Form tackles are taught with the facemask to the number, which is 'leading with your head'. Even if you 'form' tackle a guy with a shoulder in the gut and wrap at the waist, your head still crosses his body before anything else does. Fact is, leading with the head is how football is played. This one looks particularly vicious given the momentum involved but the fact that it was the block that sprung a play, not something on the back end of an INT return or something, Tate stayed on his feet,, used his arms and didn't have his face completley down tells me the flag should have stayed off of the turf.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
I thought to be called a true "spear", one has to launch themselves off their feet, toward their target, leading with the head? At least by this criterion, the hit in question here would be legal.
Helmets are always bound to collide, William is absolutely right there. As long as we play with them, defenders and blockers are going to use their heads to their advantage. I don't think the above play was dirty, per se, just brutal. Tate's feet are planted, and his whole body is making contact with Sean Lee (arms and head both driving into him), rather than just the crown of his helmet flying at him.
For example, Taylor Mays' hit on Ed Dickson of the Ravens was obviously a "spear" tackle. Mays launches off hit feet, leading with his helmet, and collides with the reciever like a ballistic missle. His helmet is obviously the weapon in this scenario: there's absolutely no attempt being made to use his arms or the rest of his body to form tackle him, Mays is clearly trying to propel his head directly into Dickson's facemask here for a brutal collision so that he'll think twice the next time he tries to come over the middle. This is the kind of "punk ass" play that needs to be weeded out of the league.
@brewsters -- yeah, I see what you're saying. Like I said I don't really personally care what they call one way or another I just want to see consistency.
You got it Hodge, at least you got what I'm trying to say. I do like your point Bolt. Something has to give here. If Tate gets protection under rules, Lee should too.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
@ William..
The flag was thrown for a late hit on Russell Wilson out of bounds by the cowboys, as others have pointed out:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/football/2012/09/17/was-golden-tates-huge-hit-on-dallas-sean-lee-illegal/
"But the flag, it turned out, was against Dallas for unnecessary roughness after the play — for Cowboys’ linebacker Bruce Carter pushing Wilson out of bounds. The officials let Tate’s hit stand, and Lee was helped off the field after getting up slowly"
Furthermore, Lee himself supported the hit and found nothing wrong with it, stating:
"“It’s one of those deals. It’s part of the game,” Lee said. “It’s part of football."
So again, it was a grown ass man block. Not a punk ass roided out block.
For the record, William, you, and the announcers, are wrong. The flag was thrown for the push out of bounds on Wilson (lame, but that was the call that was made). The block wasn't flagged.
"You're pissed because we went after a committed guy? Guess what, we got 9 guys who better go do it again," said Meyer. "Do it a little harder next time."
Legit hit, those saying otherwise likely wouldn't say this same thing if one of our players did it...is it bc he's an ex ND player that we are acting this way? He was NOT flagged for it, nor was he fined by the NFL....LEGIT hit. If you don't think that's clean then I suggest taking up flag football. This is the problem with the game today...this is a grown man's game and we are turning it into something else. I'm all for player safety but 9 out of 10 times they throw flags for "unnecessary roughness" its complete bs and in a lot of cases caused by the player who was hit ducking his head at the last minute.
Because he's an ex-ND player? He's laying out and ex-Penn State player. I'd think most of our folks here would dislike Lee even more. I do. Regardless...I was complaining in the Miami game when Etienne Sabino essentially got a personal foul for tackling a receiver as he caught the ball. If you're gonna call that panzy crap to protect the receivers why are the receivers in turn allowed to turn around and blindside "defenseless" linebackers?
Regardless of whether it was illegal, it was totally unnecessary. They are two grown men doing their job, but there is no need to try to injure anyone as part of that job. This is much worse than the Bucs going hard through the whistle when Eli is taking a knee.
Bolt - I wasn't really talking about you, I actually agree with you that consistency is needed on how this crap penalty is called, esp in regards to the frequency.
But in regards to THIS hit, I see nothing wrong with the "form" Tate used. The NFL is pretty strict with their overreactons in regards to fines in situations like this and if they saw no reason to fine for this hit then I'm not sure why its an issue.
Rdubs - These kinds of hits have been going on since players wore leather helmets. I agree that in SOME cases they aren't neccessay but where do you draw the line?
Hey William I think Manchester United plays tomorrow, that might be more your speed.
James Harrison was fined for this hit.
Class of 2010.
Actually Phxbuck I'm really looking towards the Arsenal-Man City match-up this weekend.
The issue here isn't whether this is legal or not. The issue is if Lee is a tight end coming across the middle and Tate is a safety who delivers this hit to separate Lee from the ball, it would have been flagged every time and Tate would be facing a serious fine or even suspension. Or let's say Tate was named James Harrison, it would have been flagged everytime.
This is the kinda bs, bush league crap that drives me further and further away from the NFL. I think in both instances (the actual play and my hypo) the hit should be legal.
Maybe the NFL should just put pretty pastel velcro flags around their waists and when 1 is pulled you're down. I hope nobody gets mad and offended when one gets pulled very hard and the player falls down, that would be tragic.
Lingerie Football League women hit harder now days, and look damn sexy doing it!
Tomorrow
Anyone that has played football knows that there's nothing manly or macho about a crackback block. You're essentially blind siding someone and it's an easy hit to make. You can give up 100 pounds to someone and still knock them over on a crackback. They're not some sort of display of strength over your opponent. They're lucky, circumstantial hits where you have physics on your side. I hate crackbacks. Lead with your hands, push the guy in the direction of his momentum so he falls over, and then turn to pick up another defender.
Id rather see him just slow the guy down instead of killing him. It doesn't seem necessary...
I've played football through college, and anyone who has will tell you the same thing. When you have the chance to knock someone on their ass....you do it. Football is a violent, instinctful, momentum filled game...you can't ask someone to "slow" down because he might hit the guy when he isn't looking. Should we also stop blind side hits on the QB? Ask the defender to just "push him down"?
Well I'm %100 certain Sean Lee would have just grabbed Russel Wilson, wrapped him up and gently taken him to the ground so Tate was out of line here....
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
@CincyOSU...as a former player as well, you nailed it!
If anyone thinks that play was illegal or unncessary, watch less World Cup Soccer.
If Denard Robinson isn't careful with spooning all that food into his mouth, he's going to end up lookin' like Whoopi Goldberg
There is a reason why I woudn't be good at football (well, besides the fact I don't have 4.4 speed and am not 6'2" 250 lbs)... I respect those I "work" with and wouldn't want to do unnecessary harm to them. Yes it is hard to make those split second decisions and still be instinctual.. but is it worth it?
The truth is, though, that players don't mind the head hits (at least not until they're retired). A while back, Cowherd had the journalist who did a big article in GQ on head injuries on his show and he mentioned a telling bit that James Harrison told him--something that a lot of players echoed to the journalist as well:
It's that they'd much rather be hit in the head than anywhere else. It's almost an unspoken agreement to aim high rather than low with hits. The issue is that a concussion normally will knock a player out of a game, maybe the next one--as well--if it's serious. If a player gets hit hard down low, there's a good chance that it can damage knees, ACLs, and vastly increase the chance of season-or-career-ending injury. Given the choice, most players--it seems--prefer cognitive damage to damaging their personal liveliehood.
Yep. In their mind, a hit to the head is less likely to end their CAREERS than a shot to the knee would. They'll gladly trade the potential risk of years of brain problems for a few extra years in the sun because the XCL's are intact.
Its a violent game, and its a fast game. No one seems to care Sean Lee wasn't paying attention. I never played beyond high school but did play 10 years of organized football and each and every time I made a sudden change of direction, the bell went off in my head "Someone might see me even though I can't see them".
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Great play by Tate, as soon as he saw Wilson was gonna run he had the presence of mind to go from receiver to blocker.
Those calling this play illegal or unnecessary must have played Flag their whole life. Football is a game of contact and you should protect yourself at all times. Sean Lee was just reminded of that.
Wow, lot's of different takes on this one. I must preface that I live in Seattle and I am a Sewhawks fan. I am also a past HS coach, and I also know a few NFL players and coaches. My view on the hit in question is that it was borderline. This could easily have been flagged, and most probably would have had the real NFL refs been calling the game. The reason for this is that the crown of the helmet was used in the hit.
Had I been a coach I could see it both ways. It was both a good block and a questionable block. Had the facemask been up and planted in Lee's chest it would have been a great block. As for the arguement of "spearing", yes this could have been called spearing (something the refs don't call enough). It should be noted that one does not have to "launch" for spearing to be called, however launching would get more refs to make the call.
If I were Tate's coach I would congratulate him on a great hit, but I would educate him on the technique he used. Tucking his head like he did risks unnecessary injury to both the hittee and the hitter. Indeed, if you watch the entire play, although Lee absorbed most of the energy (physics here - lots of formulas to figure out where the energy is transfered), Tate absorbed a bunch himself. The follow through knocked him to the ground as well, and for a moment at least, it looked like he would stay down. Then the adrenaline took hold and he was in euphoria!
For those needing the actual rule (still leaves a lot to interpreation, but officials are supposed to error on protecting any player and flagging anything that resembles this):
Rule 12, Section 2, Article 8 (Unnecessary roughness) in the NFL rulebook
(f) If a player uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily. Although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent, game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those players who are in virtually defenseless postures, including but not limited to:
(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face with the helmet or facemask, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; or
(2) Lowering the head and violently or unnecessarily making forcible contact with the “hairline” or forehead part of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body; or
(3) “Launching” (springing forward and upward) into a defenseless player, or otherwise striking him in a way that causes the defensive player’s helmet or facemask to forcibly strike the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face—even if the initial contact of the defender’s helmet or facemask is lower than the defenseless player’s neck. (Examples: a defender buries his facemask into a defenseless player’s high chest area, but the defender’s trajectory as he leaps into the defenseless player causes the defender’s helmet to strike the defenseless player violently in the head or face; or a defender, using a face-on posture or with his head slightly lowered, hits a defenseless player in an area below the defenseless player’s neck, then the defender’s head moves upward, resulting in strong contact by the defender’s mask or helmet with the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face [an example is the so-called “dip and rip” technique]).
@NW BUCK - Awesome comment. Also, I'm very jealous of where you live.
Hodge,
We are going to be at E2B. You will recognize use, we will be the ones with rust from all the rain!!!!
Wish I would be there, considering I live a mere hour from the stadium. Alas, my friend's getting married (he's a UM fan, I'm sure he's just trolling me), so I'll be out. It's a goal of mine to one day have Joe's Special at 13 Coins, and to snowboard Crystal Mountain and Mt. Baker haha.
Good goals! Mt Baker is awesome. If you ever get to it, you need to do the cylce - start at Mt Baker, go to Crystal, venture to Mt Hood, and finish up at Mt Bachelor. Would be alot to cram into a week, but well worth it.
Was it a legal hit? Yes (though some have said it wasn't). Was it necessary? Absolutely not. Yes, football is a physical game. That doesn't mean hurting people is the end goal. You don't get points for leaving bodies on the field. I guess my perspective is different having been the guy that did weigh 225 lbs and run a 4.4. Outmuscle, outpush, outwhit, outhustle your opponents. No need to injure them or hit them with any intent of hurting them.
And honestly, the guys that always go for the big hit (as opposed to abiding by the fundamentals and breaking down to make a sure tackle) end up whiffing a bunch and looking like morons. Yeah, Shazier makes big hits. How often has he whiffed these past few weeks (and the d-backs for that matter)? You know who didn't do that? AJ Hawk. I don't think I can ever distinctly remember him whiffing on a tackle by trying to go for the big hit instead of a fundamental tackle.
NW Buckeye, great post. Also Tate was just fined $21,000.
Well, he got fined $21,000 for it. Legal or not that would prevent me from doing it agian.
"You're pissed because we went after a committed guy? Guess what, we got 9 guys who better go do it again," said Meyer. "Do it a little harder next time."
Saying a player is leading with his head when he tackles or blocks is like saying he's leading with his feet while running. It will never change, the people who make the rules often never played or understand. You lead with your head.... because its on top of your shoulders.
I'm waiting for the day when some NFL safety just starts throwing shoulders into guys chests or stomachas at full speed in the open field. Maybe some sever whiplash, or ruptured spleens will open eyes. I would rather be hit in the head while wearing a helmet, than get hit with a helmet anywhere else on my body.
I've said it before on these type of coversations. If you want to eliminate hitting or "leading" with the head, take the helmets off the players. Broken noses, missing teeth, and black eyes>consussions. With that said, imagine football with no helmets, and imagine how many guys would be knocked out from cathing knees or elbows to the head.
Nothing can be done.... it is what it is. It's football, and it's a risky dangerous game.
Dustin Fox was our leading tackler as a corner.... because his guy always caught the ball.