One of the NCAA's goals with the Penn State sanctions was to diminish the football culture (aka cult-of-Paterno) in State College. Many, myself included, have argued that this culture was the seedbed which fostered the Sandusky cover-up. I'm beginning to doubt that lessening this culture is even possible at this point. Two recent incidents give support to my doubts.
Item 1: a rally was held this morning which included "a pep band and more than 1,000 fans bearing signs and shouting their support." Among those in attendance was none other than Sue Paterno.
Item 2: an appeal went out this past weekend via letter and email from Franco Harris, Rudy Glocker and Christian Marrone (all former PSU football players) to Penn State alumni.
"A grave injustice has occurred over these past two weeks that began with the issuance of the Freeh report," the email states. "After much review, it's clear the report is highly flawed, and factually insufficient. Yet, the media, the Board of Trustees, University officials and the NCAA, seem to have read only the conclusions and not the content of the report and have failed to question the report's evidentiary basis or lack thereof — they have rushed to judgment. As a result, OUR program has been brutally harmed and our Coach has been completely tarnished."
The email asks those who support its claims to sign the letter and return it by Saturday.
[also this - NC]
The players criticize the thoroughness of the Freeh report because the investigators did not interview many of the central people in the case, including Paterno, who died in January, Penn State Athletic Director Tim Curley and Vice-President Gary Schultz, who are both awaiting trial on charges of perjury and failure to report suspected child abuse, and former assistant coach Mike McQueary, who was a key witness in the case against Sandusky.
So contrary to feelings of culpability and atonement from the Penn State community, we get defiance. /sigh
I didn't initially feel this way. But if we don't see some change in Happy Valley, well...
I'm glad that they're rallying behind their team--fan support goes a long way here. These guys that stay committed will be legends in State College lore, and I'm happy for Penn State that Hackenburg and Beneman are staying--it will help maintain their program's prestige and mitigate the NCAA's firebomb.
That said, the whole appeal business is nonsense. The BOT accepted the Freeh report as conclusive, and so would the entire "lunatic fringe" if the Freeh Report was kinder towards Paterno's legacy. I honestly hope that Penn State comes back soon, though. I really would feel awful delighting in their fans' heartbreak; sure, they have some of the worst fans on Earth, but it's just that crazy 10% that we all have--albeit worse than everyone else's--the rest of them don't deserve this. College football is a secular religion for me--and I'm sure it is to a lot of us on this board--and Penn State's been fire bombed for the next few years. I couldn't imagine how upset I'd be if this happened to our beloved Buckeyes.
*** BREAKING NEWS ***
sources: Franco Harris, Matt Millen, Jay Paterno & Gary Pinkel have decided to buy the Joe Pa statue & donate it to the NAMBLA Hall of Fame Museum.
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
It seems to me that all the fans and students are doing is showing appreciation to the players and staff who are remaining committed to the university in their darkest days. While the university and football culture are to blame for a huge atrocity, neither the current staff or players were involved and yet they are being affected by the fallout andhave still remained commited to their school. I think this kind of fan support would be typical for any fan base of any major program.
And I think anyone who believes athletics being bigger than academics is a "Penn State issue" then I think they are being naive. Whether it is Kentucky or UNC in basketball, or Alabama, Auburn, or even Ohio State in football; this is an issue to varying degrees for any successful athletic program. I'm too young to remember it, but I believe there was similar outrage and "pep rallies" staged here at OSU in the 50's or 60's when the faculty voted not to allow the football team to attend a bowl game because they felt it was becoming bigger than the University's academic side. Were those students perputating a culture of football or just supporting innocent students who were denied an earned opporunity?
Why would Gary Pinkel get involved in that? He's not a former PSU player or coach.
Wouldn't we support our players if they did nothing wrong?
ot: in germany it's (still) considered in bad taste to hang a german flag outside your house due to the nationalism contributions from the holocaust. this would be an extreme example, but it feels like penn state wants to hang their flags already.
I just think it's a little quick for this sort of rally. It's not out of question to do, but, I think it would have been better timing in late August/early September before their first game.
btw - I think they will be "upset" in that first game by Ohio U. 23-17 Bobcats.
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
^That would be shocking. This is pretty much the same team that beat us last year.
* I should have added a big If, * if * Silas Redd leaves. That will make a big difference. I think he's already in the process of becoming a Trojan man.
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
"Grave injustice..."??? I pray they are referring to the cover-up and enabling that went on at their school, by their head coach and school/department leaders that allowed children to get sexually assaulted for over a decade. I do not understand how Penn State fans are STILL... STILL... in denial/have no idea the severity of what happened... this makes me hate Penn State fans almost as much as Michigan... I hope we beat Penn State by 80.
The thing that fascinates me the most about the ongoing reaction is the framing of the Freeh report. I don't understand how anyone can possibly argue that an independent company (headed by the former head of the FBI) hired by the BOT to investigate this, that sifted through thousands of documents and correspondence and produced the most detailed report college football has ever seen, can possibly be called biased, highly flawed and factually insufficient. And these same people are telling people straight faced that THEIR version is going to be the unbiased one?!?!? It's like the frickin twilight zone in happy valley.
When told OSU set school record for 50+ games this year, UFM said "That's good. We're gonna break that next year."
Not sure how Item 1, the pep rally, is even brought up. What do you expect them to do, denounce the team and the season? This season is going to be full of the "us against the world" crap. I do think we starting to get a little too critical of EVERY move PSU makes. This change in culture is not going to happen overnight, hence the length and severity of the NCAA penalties. Give the fans, esp the lunatic fringe, time to reflect and adjust(obviously some never will). I really think that after this year you will begin to see some change.
In any case, is anyone else tired of talking/worrying about PSU? They are screwed for 4 years...they got what they deserved. Lets focus on whats really important...BUCKEYE FOOTBALL!
Hodge, I'm on board with you about 99.9 percent of the time but I think today, the .1 has revealed itself. The NCAA attempted to slow the football crazy culture that gave rise to the cult of Paterno and ultimately lead to a bad situation (Sandusky) getting worse (Cover up). They said the right thing but sent the wrong message by not killing the program for 2 years (minimum). These penalties have had exactly the opposite effect on Penn State as their fever has reached critical levels. Front runner for the BrewstersMillions Boner of the year award, Michael Mauti was recently in Chicago and said that he's gotten calls and emails from people saying "They haven't been to a game in years and will be at every one this year". Then of course there is O'Brien and Hill embracing TeamOutlaw-which I previously addressed as an absolutely horrendous message\rallying cry. Outlaw-someone who doesn't like laws. Laws in this case=anti Child Rape. Penn State Outlaw=against Child Rape Laws? I know that isn't what they are actually saying but you are playing the victim here when everything that happened to you was self induced. The next step for most people is to say "Well these players didn't have anything to do with this so they shouldn't be punished" and normally I would agree with you but these players (and I can only assume the team feels this way as its appointed leaders, Mauti and Hill are SO vocal) are showing no contrition and are actively embracing this new role here. Then, you have the Alumni Association sending out letters to all PSU alums urging for support and stating their disgust with....drum roll please...THE NCAA'S RULINGS THEIR SCHOOL APPROVED OF. My problem here is since the NCAA fake bomb dropped, nothing they intended on doing has been done-Penn State has swung in the other direction with TeamOutlaw and We Are Pissed Off!. What about "We are truly sorry". I keep telling myself that what we see is the vocal minority. That a world class institution like Penn State has put out thousands of contributing members of society and somewhere those people are saying "This is a shame". All I see are people proving my points for me. You now have your new head coach embracing this attitude, leaders of the team embracing this idea of being outlaws, Alumni Associations pitching a fit about what the NCAA took away, but no where (to my knowledge) has anyone with any influence come out and said "This needs to stop. These are things you can not say". I've not seen the slightest bit of contrition from these idiots and they only get louder by the day. Finally, I'll say that even in death Joe Paterno has his minions dancing on his stage. This attitude of defiance's root cause is the Paterno family and their unwillingness to accept that Joe was a fraud. It all trickles down from there. Nothing about Penn State as a whole has me hoping they get better soon. I hope this Coma Penalty serves its only remaining purpose-to turn PSU football into a joke. Since these people want football to cure the ills of the last 15 years, I hope this season, and the next several are long, drawn out affairs filled with double digit losses.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
@BREWSTER - I guess I kind of equate the "backlash" sentiment to that of our fanbase post-NCAA-hammer. We were angry with those at the top (Smith, even some people with Gee), and trying to rationalize and cannonize our beloved head coach. We thought that our punishment was unwarranted, and are rallying behind our team to "Shock the World" and rise up out of the dungeon that the NCAA, the media, and overall public sentiment cast us into. We discounted Dohrmann's smear-campaign as hearsay evidence from convicted felons, and still largely love and support our old coach. To be clear, these situations are on entirely different levels, and I personally still do support Tressel (though I acknowledge that he made an egregous error and deserved his fate); the evidence presented against Paterno, though, is far more damning.
I guess my main point of contention with you (and as you mentioned, this rarely ever occurs haha), is on the topic of the fans' support of their team. I don't think that they're cheering for child rape, or anything like that; I'm sure almost everyone who roots for the Nittany Lions believes that Sandusky is guilty of his fate. Like us, they're cheering on the team--which for the first time since the mid-'60s is no longer personified by a larger-than-life-legend--and hoping they can rise up and defeat their percieved slight by the NCAA (a punishment of which I'll readily admit was more than deserved). Sure, they've been asshats to us in the past; but then again, we have some that have been almost as bad. I feel for the rational ones, the ones that cheer for the team, the ones that don't post conspiracy stories on BSD or sign delusional petitions seeking to repair the image of a fallen hero. I'm sure they're very similar to us: people that want nothing more than to remain fans of one of the traditional powers of the college football world, people that are ready to embrace a new era with a guy that they've deemed to be the savior of their program, people that want the institution to move past the "cult-of-Paterno" mantra (like I do with regards to our shabby compliance record--again, not on the same level, but parallels nonetheless), and people that above all else root for the team on the jersey, not just the figureheads that represent it. I feel much the same way at the dawn of Urban Renewal here in Columbus.
Make no mistake, the institution deserved their fate. That said, I'm personally glad that the fans didn't lose everything--not to mention the fact that a publicly transparent institution and new face of the program will be the very best way to shed Paterno's intertwined legacy. All a death penalty would have done is preserved the memory of what got them there.
morning or mourning :)
@ Hodge- Well said. That's how I see the rally.
@ Brewster- What purpose would shutting down the football program for two years serve? (It could take 10 years to be competitive again.) Do you really think that Happy Valley is nothing but a bunch of football crazed child-rapists?
I'm not so sure that you can accurately characterize a university the size and culture of PSU by the actions of four people, even if they are high ranking individuals representing the university. Other than the removal of Joe Pa's wins and the university fine, every other punishment levied is collateral damage. How could anyone not see this reaction coming and why is it such a surprise and cause of any outrage?
Well that might be our bigger problem Hodge (and Schooey). I don't see it as a rally for the players. I see it as a rally for the Penn State Football program and all that it means to these people. Penn State fans are among the most passionate in the country. They have ALWAYS sold out HV and have always cheered loud (Side note-our 100K is louder than their 110K, the Shoe's acoustics blow HV out of the water). The whole point of the NCAA was to tell the school, the football program, and yes the millions of fans that the attitude you all had that gave rise to one man's unflappable power needs to stop. By cheering louder and attending more games, they are simply doing what they have always done just on a larger scale. This is my problem here-the actions of Jerry Sandusky are deplorable, horrific and shake even the most hardened observers conscience but what he did was made worse because it was allowed to happen by 4 men who could have stopped it and chose not to. They did it to protect Joe's soon to be record breaking reputation and the enormity of Penn State Football. The thing got SO big that Joe and Co had no choice but to protect it, no matter what the crime committed was. That is why it needed to be killed. Its sheer magnitude was the reason kids got raped after 1998 because the men who could act actively chose not to and engaged in the worst game of 'pass the buck' any of us will ever see. Any adamant and fevered support for this team is blind to the fact that it got (and still is) to damned big for its own damned good. I hate cliche but whatever, lets fire one up. With Great power comes great responsibility. Simply having a big program isn't enough because this doesn't happen at Ohio State. It doesn't happen at Alabama, it doesn't happen at Texas. No where in the nation has any coach held the power over a school and state that Paterno had, no one would have been able to cover an item of this magnitude up with such ease. When Penn State fans are out supporting Penn State football SO proudly, they send a message to me that they just don't get it. None of them do. This isn't about the 2012, 2013, 2014, or 2015 Penn State football players who won't play in a bowl game. Its about the size of the organization that allowed for a terrible crime to get so much worse. They are supporting their team that they love, I get it but sometimes its ok to say "man those guys really fucked up" and instead of saying "well we are just going to cheer louder than ever" say "I think its time we shut up for a little while". This stuff is all one giant middle finger to the goal the punishment was supposed to achieve. That is why taking football away all together would have been more satisfying to me. They can't rally around a team that isn't there.
EDIT-Just read the link to the article about the letter.
""A grave injustice has occurred over these past two weeks that began with the issuance of the Freeh report,""
Grave injustice. That takes a lot of nerve to say. Then to insult it further by saying "Past two weeks". What about the last 14 years? Anyone seem to care about that? This is what I'm saying dudes. These are influential members of the Penn State community and THIS is their message. This is the grave injustice they got riled up over? No one should support this team. That is my new stance on the subject. Penn State football is a disgusting display of all that is wrong with this world. I can not even begin to put into words how enraged that one sentence just made me.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
..BOTTOM LINE: Let's all be honest....If the situation was reversed, EVERYONE on this board would have shown up at 6am to cheer the Bucks!! (most likely ranting against the NCAA and supporting the innocent players)...even @BREWSTER
I think the statement is out of line, but the rally was OK.
"It's just another case of there you are". ~ Doc (1918-2012)
@ Brewster- Naw, I'm not buying that PSU is somehow so unique in football culture that that is why this happened. Paterno's stature was indeed unique, but this could happen anywhere.
Sounds like you want some silence for the victims, you should make that argument instead.
No Buk. We wouldn't. I wouldn't. I hung my head over Tressel not quite being the Tressel we thought he was but I accepted it. That alone seperates me from Penn State fans. If OSU was the school involved and our fans, alums, and ex players reacted like Penn State's have, I would be disgusted and probably take my diploma down from my office wall. This isn't just support for the kids on the team guys, its the strict and defiant adherence to a way of life that gave rise to this entire mess.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Agree to disagree Schooey. It is. Name me a single coach who told his bosses to effectivley fuck off when they wanted him out. Joe knew how PSU fans would swing if he was let go. He had that place by the short and curlies in a fashion no coach has ever had before.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
And? How is that related? So the higher-ups did not want to cover it up but Joe made them do it?
I'm sure some will take this the wrong way, but I don't think that Joe Pa or anyone else involved thought to themselves that all of this was going to happen with Sandusky. I think everyone is just assuming too easily that these guys got together and agreed to allow all of these henious acts to take place in the name of the football program. I'm sorry, but I just don't think it is that cut and dry and I think many people don't want to see or even consider the other side of the story.
If Joe Paterno was able to basically tear up his pink slip at any point he wanted, and he was on board with covering this up, who exactly do you think would choose to oppose him? Sorry to answer a question with a question but I actually didn't know there were people still disputing the heights of Joe's power. If he wanted to be part of a coverup, everyone was part of a cover up.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Brewster...sounds like you are almost blaming or asking thousand/millions of folks who cheer for PSU to shut up for a while and pay a price of not cheering for thier team, b/c of the actions of 4 men? Seems really, really unfair and kinda ridiculous. Most folks don't accept guilt or punishment when they had nothing to do with any of it.
@Optimistic- Exactly.
It seems highly unrealistic that there was a premeditated coverup, rather than a circumstantial one that I am sure they all regret but could not backup on and had to hope for the best but got the worst. Guilty nontheless, but it makes a difference, especially to PSU fans, as it would us as well.
@ Brewster - Could it be that you are reading too much into every little thing related to Penn State? I know you mentioned a few days ago that you have a little "guilty pleasure in getting irritated" by the PSU situation, in particular the fanbase. I'm not sure what you want them to do? How is staging a pep rally a bad thing? You mention it being for the fans...well, thats what pep rallies are for...the TEAM and the FANS. I assure you, not EVERY PSU fan has their head in the sand. I think you are taking the opinions of the fringe fans and using that as a full representation of all PSU fans. You have to realize, this is still new to them...its going to take some time to fully process everything. Everything they have known to be true flor decades has been turned upside down the span of a few months. Give it time. After this season, I fully expect to see change happen in Happy Valley...but its not going to happen overnight. It's almost like the only thing that would satisfy you is to see EVERY fan denounce the team and turn their backs on something that is deeply rooted in the community. Whether you like it or not, football IS Penn State...its deeply rooted in what they are(just like here in Ohio). The culture that paterno created is the issue....but the head has been cut off the snake in this case and EVENTUALLY it will die off. But you can't expect it to happen overnight.
Again, I mean no disrespect. You just seem to be overly attached to this situation.
Buk,
I'm saying there is a time to be proud and this isn't it.
Cincy,
I am. The depths these people are sinking to do not cease to amaze me. One of two things is happening here. Either I am giving way to much creedence to the power and magnitude of Penn State Football or some people aren't giving it enough. All of this over the top support is simply sending the wrong message to me. It is celebrating a group of players and coaches that comprise a team-that in and of itself doesn't make me upset. My problem is the daily reminder that these fans and alums don't get how bad this whole thing was. Not the acts. Everyone, even Franco Harris, will say what Jerry did was bad. But this failure to admit more sinister motives occurred after has me stunned. Such displays of outward support for football at PSU as a whole say to me "We don't care, we still love Penn State football". Someone simply needs to stand up and say "Ok Penn State fans, just chill out for a few years". That is what I want and I won't get it.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Brewster - But you are taking it as if they are "proud" of the actions(or inaction) of a handful of ppl rather than what it is...a simple rallying cry to stand behind a group of young men who did nothing wrong.
Dont confuse the rally with the letter that went out over the weekend.
Ciny, they aren't accepting them. Since they aren't accepting them, they are defiantley celebrating all that is PSU football. I would rather them be proud of Joe's reaction because they will at least admit he did something. It's a snowball effect going on here. They don't think Joe and Co. did anything wrong, they see coverage of this story and assume media blood lust, they then proceed to come out in droves waving their middle finger at all who oppose them. This rally isn't for the players. Its for Penn State football on a larger scale. That is what these people are supporting-the way of life they have known and do not want to change. Fuck each and every last one of them. I'm sorry guys, but this stuff has only served as fuel to send me even further off the deep end I've previously gone off of.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
@BREWSTER - I agree, the enduring Paterno-hero-worship is getting old, fast. For me, it's gone from sad to upsetting to just plain infuriating--while all the while being incredibly distasteful and disrespectful towards the victims. I have no sympathy for those fans, and agree that they're a part of the culture that helped create said problem. Maybe I have too much faith in people, but from the initial reaction to the Freeh Report on BSD I got the sense that a lot of genuine Penn Staters were sickened by Paterno's actions (I recall one quote, "I'm furious about what Sandusky did, but even more furious at Curley, Schultz, and Paterno"), which leads me to believe that a lot of their more rational fanbase probably feels accordingly. I mean, look at the difference between Paterno's ouster and the removal of his statue: people rioted when he was fired, yet hardly anyone showed up when his statue was removed. That shows me that the culture's already changing, and that there are a lot of level-headed fans out there in Happy Valley that the crazies completely drown out.
I had a hard time accepting Tressel's fall from grace--being 22, he personifies Buckeye football to me--so I can understand why Penn State fans would want to cling to any hope that their hero wasn't guilty of such a terrible thing (even if their post-Freeh rationalization and outrage sickens me), but the time has come to put that fire out. Yet, in my opinion, this is why the rally is such a good thing. This rally's not about Paterno, or the ousted "old guard" of Penn State: it's about embracing the future with O'Brien at the helm, and rooting for the guys who will bring their team back--not the conspiring men who were responsible for this mess. All shutting up would do is show that the NCAA officially broke Penn State's spirit: and I don't believe that was their intent. They intended to change the institutional culture, not the fan's passion. I'd expect my fellow Buckeyes (students, alumni, fans, players, staff, coaches, and administrators alike) to act in the exact same way.
@OPTOMISTIC - I agree. I'm betting they chose to ignore McQueary's report, dismissing it as a "misunderstanding". They probably assumed it would be more trouble than it was worth, and--if they were wrong--would destroy Sandusky's life. Regardless, they committed a crime and acted unilaterally in doing so, and then lied to a Grand Jury about it. None of Penn State's (or the conspiring foursome's) punishment is undeserved.
Hodge, you make a good point about the reaction of the firing and the removal of the statue. One thing I will say-the firing occurred mid term and the rioters were all students while the removal of the statue was during the summer. I lived off campus over summers at OSU and Columbus is a shadow of its former self when regular terms aren't in session. Had they opted to remove it during the school year, I'd be interested to see the reaction.
I think we've gotten to the bottom of it-We see the rally's as two different things. I see it as more than just the guys and coaches suiting up this season. I see it as a way to show the NCAA they aren't changing anything any time soon-and because of that I'm of the opinion that (big shock) the NCAA botched this one. IF they intended to change the culture around the football team, they should have cut it off at the neck and removed football from Happy Valley.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Ya, hodge, where is that in all of this? No one seems to mention Joe perjured himself.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
@BREWSTER - Got me, man. You never hear any of the apologists--or anyone else, for that matter--talking about that. To me, at least, that's the smoking gun that really shoots down JoePa's supposed "innocence". It's a tough pill for a lot of PSU faithful to swallow, but that's the most damning evidence that Freeh produced, in my opinion.
For any of you tweeps out there, go give #SilasRedd a look and see what the fans are saying.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
11W needs a word limit to see if some of these incoherent statements can be understood. Wow!!
@SCHOOEY --- hasn't this been discussed on this site, & Elika wrote a good piece on it: this could not just have happened anywhere. You say "this could have happened anywhere" ... really? I disagree.
PSU had a bad combination going. Where else did you have a stubborn coach for five decades with lifetime tenure, a god complex, surrounded by enablers & yes men, who was allowed to (essentially) hire his own AD, Pres, & VP ? btw - combine all of that with the example of Joe being bigger than everyone in State College, (arguably the local police included). 2004 - the "higher-ups" went to visit Joe at his house, to ask him to resign...he essentially tells them to F off & kicks them out of his kitchen! Another example of Joe's absolute power was in the Freeh Report, when they decided to keep the known Sandusky incidents "in house", partly because it was the "humane" thing to do for Jerry, (WTF!?) They changed course and decided to do this "after talking with Joe". Joe was the decider here, not his "higher-ups". This sadly let to more kids getting raped.
Again, rape can happen anywhere, but the 14-year cover-up of child rapes? In the world college athletics, I think something that bad could only happen in State College. It really is related to a culture thing there. Football is huge in a lot of cities across America...but nowhere was the tradition so synonymous with the head coach than PSU and "King Joe", the little dictator.
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
Brewster - And what kind of fan typically sends insults via twitter? We knock our fans that do it. Again, I'm not sure why you continue to get yourself so worked up over what the lunatic fringe thinks/says? Its almost like you WANT to be pissed off which I don't get since almost everything you post other than PSU related topics is level headed.
@BREWSTER Do you disagree with punishment handed down to PSU by the NCAA because you think PSU will still allow child rape to happen even after the punishment was handed down?
just asking
O H I O is the Buckeye State
You know, I keep hearing that term. "Lunatic Fringe". Every fanbase has its crazies. Ours included but until someone of any importance in the PSU community comes out and says something about telling these idiots to chill our or something to the effect of "This isn't what Penn State is about" I'll continue to think the minority isn't really the minority in this specific case.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
What? Is that a joke XTreme? No. That isn't at all what I think\said. In no way has that ever been my point.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
@ Cincy I believe Brewster gets worked up because this is not just typical football stuff that you might read around the web. This is the most one of the most horrific things to ever happen. This is child rape and can not even be compared to ANYTHING else.
I do not see how level headed thoughts can prevail in this case. I'm pissed off and understand Brester being pissed off. Everyone Should be pissed off. I would be wiling to bet that if this ever happened to any of their children (penn staters) they would not be holding rallies and buying statues.
Brewster - Have you EVER heard anyone of any significance in any fanbase take a stand and say "hey you idiots, cool out"? That's simply not going to happen here. I mention the lunatic fringe as that is what you seem to be focused on....I mean has anyone ever heard of logic coming out of BSD? Thats like going to WebMD and expecting to have them tell you that you DONT have cancer. Its the same reason alot of ppl come to 11W, because they know that logic and rational thought does not exist on some of the other fansites. I guess what I'm getting at is that you are likely expecting too much too soon. As has been stated by myself and many others, everything they knew to be true and everything they were once proud of has been proved false or taken away...you can't expect that "culture" to change at the snap of your fingers. Its going to take time. Personally, I expect that we won't see much this season but as years progress ppl will begin to process and accept what has happened.
@Xtremebuckey- You nailed it. He somehow does seem to think that.
@Brewster/Bucks 43201- I let you go but I come back and you are still talking shit. So, no more letting you go my man. Yes, Elika wrote of it, and you commented on it, and I commented on it and we disagree and just because Elike wrote of it settled nothing. If I remember right, Elika took a beating over her piece, more or less. You jumping in and saying thumbs up did not make Elika any more right. I don't see her here jumping to your defense and just because Hodge is being nice to you does not mean he does not think you are not an idiot.
Joe Paterno was a god at PSU, what is your fucking point?! To argue that this is somehow unique to PSU so adamantly makes me very suspicious of you. What the hell are you about? What is your obsession here? You are still saying that Joe Paterno forced the higher-ups into the cover-up and that appears to be complete BS. Let it go because you are bordering on making no sense at this point.
Jesus, you were squarely put down in that Elika thread already, why go on?
Schooey - I actually agree with Brewster in regards to his issues with Paterno and how he created the culture at PSU that led to the cover up. In fact, it has been proven that he perjured himself and actually played a rather large role in deciding to not report the incidents to police. My two issues(if you want to call them that) stem from 1) his twisted desire to go out of his way to continually get pissed off about something...which he admitted he does and 2) his need to see instant change within the PSU fanbase...something I feel is going to take some time.
Other than that I think it's unfair to call him an idiot. Overly attached to the situation? Maybe, but he's certainly not an idiot and to his credit he has stayed VERY civil in his discussions.
Edit - you can include BUCKS43201 as well....maybe the first time I have ever defended him :)
You should go back and re-read Elika's thread. Not only did she not take a beating, Brewster wasn't squarely put down by you or anyone else. I didn't comment on that thread, but I am in total agreement that what happened at PSU was unique to PSU. Brewster is spot on with the degree of power Joe weilded as evidenced by his ability to tell his "superiors" GTFO when they asked him to resign. You think JT could have done that with Smith and Gee? Absolutely not, Gee's unfortunate joke notwithstanding
Fine, if you really believe that this situation is somehow unique to PSU due to Paterno's power there and the NCAA did what was best, then I give up. I still disagree but I don't know how else to approach you. I mean, reason does not seem to work.
I will however apologize for my temper/bad etiquette. I really am trying to control it. I will be out of town for a few days and may not be able to post. (I know you are very upset about that.)
Also, your comment, Joe's power, has nothing to do with the scandal.
Ciao
I agree with most of what BREWSTER said... i just dont think shutting the football program down for 2 years would take away any of the bad that happened to the victims (kids)... I would much rather concentrate on the bastards that were involved with the scandel by hanging them by their gonads & pelting them with rocks and then a life sentence in prison with BUBBA. If doing more to the football program would actually releive what happened to those kids i would be all for it.
I just dont like to see people get punished for something they didnt do. Look at how many coachs have screwed up programs and they just move on to another coaching job. that crap needs to stop and those coach's need to pay the price and then maybe the NCAA can get a handle on it
O H I O is the Buckeye State
@CINCYOSU: "Edit - you can include BUCKS43201 as well....maybe the first time I have ever defended him :)"
**** alright, good on ya! I'll take it ... thanks buddy!
@SCHOOEY: I wasn't "talking shit", and I don't think BREWSTER was either. Just disagree that this horrible horrible cover-up could have happened anywhere. The PSU/Joe thing was a dangerously unique combination of enablement.
Anyways...agree to disagree. No hard feelings.
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
Penn State fans shouldn't have to stop rooting for their team just because of what happened. However, the problem that I have with them is the victim mentality. The people who sit there, dismiss the Freeh report as bullshit, defend Joe to death beyond all reason, and act like they're victims of some "grave injustice" by the NCAA, irritate me to no end. Does it mean that they need to stop supporting their team? Of course not. If they want to rally for this year's football team, that's fine. I have no problem with that.
Their fans just need to accept that several people, including Joe Paterno, fucked up royally. They need to accept that the Freeh report is not bullshit, as Penn State paid for it, and there's no reason for Freeh to have any kind of agenda to falsely smear Penn State. They need to remember who the victims truly are (hint - not the fans or the current players, despite collateral damage by the NCAA sanctions). They need to accept that Joe Paterno is not the man they thought he was (as I'm sure they were saying the same thing about our fans and Jim Tressel last year at this time). Bottom line - they ned to accept that the leaders of their program did not do the right thing, and now, Penn State has to take their pennance. I'm not asking that Penn State fans shut up and stop supporting their school. I would be disappointed in any Buckeye fan that jumped ship after last year's scandal. I'm just asking that while they support their team, they accept the reality of what happened there, and not use defiance from that to motivate their support of the current team. Support the new era of PSU football - don't use anger from your lack of acceptance of reality to fuel your fire for PSU football.
Our fanbase has certainly done a better job of accepting that Jim Tressel fucked up and had to go, and accepting our pennance from the NCAA. Of course, that's a completely different and much more benign situation, not to mention much lesser sanctions. Sure, maybe a bowl ban was unfair, but I haven't seen all of the petitions and flat-out whining about it. Yeah, we criticized the fuck out of Dohrmann's piece, because he threw out some bullshit just because it would sell magazines. Louis Freeh was not trying to sell magazines.
Class of 2010.
I agree with Brewster. If they are out there, rational Penn State fans need to start standing up to their peers. IN THIS SITUATION SPECIFICALLY, defiance is not only the wrong message to stand behind, it's just... offensive. A more penitent tone would go miles towards diminishing the outrage that pretty much the entire nation feels towards their community.
Personally, I'm giving them a year to see signs that the culture is improving. Hopefully more evidence will come out of the Curley, Schultz, and Spanier trials that will eventually convince the mainstreamers that a "grave injustice" was not inflicted on Paterno. If, however, they are still as belligerent as they are now, then it's time to start talking about kicking them out of the Big Ten. IMO.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
Schooey, I guess I offended you somewhere? Sorry? I'm really not sure what to say at this point. NC summed it up well. This situation calls for a different reaction than normal. Penn State fans aren't doing it. They are swinging in the opposite direction of what the NCAA wanted to accomplish-therefore the NCAA punishments failed. I'm growing tired of people comparing OSU's shit show to Penn State's because nothing about them is the same. I'll sit a top my high horse here. Ohio State fans are better and reacted better to their issues than Penn State fans have. Let them go out and cheer and send whatever message they see fit. I've said a dozen times now that I don't feel like they are cheering the players. This isn't about Mauti, or Moxie, or anyone specific, its about Penn State fans saying "Eff you NCAA, you want to change our culture, well here it is in full force!". If you can't get that, you aren't paying attention. Finally-Let me go? Talking shit? Seriously? I'm passionate about this issue. I appriciate you 'letting me off of the hook' but you're the one who still thinks Paterno wasn't pulling strings at State College when countless stories and facts have come out that he was. Thanks for 'letting me go' homie....
....cuz if you don't know. Now you know.
Cincy-I guess I expected more than the opposite of change right away. No, they won't (but should) change over night but this is almost fanatic with their worship-when it shows no signs of slowing down early, you are a lot more optimistic than I am about this. As for people in other groups\fanbases not saying stuff like that-agreed. It hasnt really happened before. Neither has what happened at PSU. Because their situation is unique, unique reactions need to occurr, they aren't. No contrition has been shown. Only arrogance, defiance, and pride. That will never be ok with me.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
I think a lot of this thread can be summed up by Jules Winnfield:
And I believe it was Luke from the classic film Out Cold who summed it up for me...
"No regrets, that's my motto. Well... that and everybody Wang Chung tonight."
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Wow, a lot to read/catch up on. All I will say is that the victim-culture at PSU needs go AND, if this happened at Ohio State (everything, coaches/administration/president covering it up) the football program would be dead to me and I would put my degree away.
Different strokes.
Help is on the way.
True story. The Friday after the Freeh Report was released I went to an event in Cary with two fellow Buckeye fans. We counted three people at the event wearing "Penn State" shirts. It was obvious that they chose to display their affiliation as an act of defiance to the public backlash resulting from the Freeh Report.
What was lost on them, though, was that everytime someone in the crowd noticed one of them -- Sandusky and the Freeh Report became the topic of conversation in that group. Not that the three must be proud of their Penn State roots or that they must bleed blue and white. While sitting in the crowd and eavesdropping on the conversations around me, I could literally tell everytime someone new happened to notice them in the crowd. Same thing, over and over. Sandusky and the Freeh Report. Paterno was a bad guy. Penn State is a disgrace. Etc. This is central North Carolina BTW.
So basically their act of defiance had the opposite effect of what they intended. That's the problem boiled down to its essence. There is a wide gulf between the Penn State community's perceived reality and the actual reality.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
@NC
That's the thing I feared with the punishments that came down. That rather than putting things in perspective for them it just sends them further into their own dilusional corner and makes them even more defensive and defiant causing everyone else to hunker down and become more critical of them and just go back and forth in a vicious cycle.
Or maybe the fans and alumni believe that their university is bigger than indiscretions of four people.
@Optimistic
Four people didn't act in a vacuum. The culture encouraged them to act the way they did. Especially Paterno.
PSU students, fans, and alumni need to own up to their own culpability in the cover-up. I see none of that at present.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
People can't support a culture that they didn't know existed. You can't blame students, alumin, and fans for loving and cheering for their university as much as OSU fans do.
Also, I thought the Freeh report noted that the decision of the four people was made to avoid bad publicity for both the university and the football program.
All I can think of is what I'd do if this happened at Ohio State. If something horrific like this did happen, I'd want the heads of all those involved and be ashamed of my alma mater. Yet, the players who suit up for my school had nothing to do with said scenario--and more than the men themselves, I'm rooting for the school they're representing. I'd attend a rally for Ohio State under those circumstances: not to thumb my nose at the NCAA (which, atmittedly, is a very contentious subject amongst the public at large--hence I can understand why fans are bitter--the punishment's warranted, but the NCAA's grounds are shaky at best), but to show my team that regardless of what higher-ups may have done to shame my program, I am a Buckeye--born and bred. The actions of those few may sicken me, but it cannot shake the allegiance to which I've held myself so dearly to.
Penn State's culture will change, that's for the institution to fix--no matter how much fans may deify a man, the institution is responsible for his power. We understood that with Woody Hayes, somewhere along the line Penn State lost sight of that. Let the fans complain about the NCAA sanctions--I mean, look at us, even we're divided about this--they're fans, they're going to support their team. The Paterno apologists are entitled to their delusional, sickening worldview, but I doubt that they're really the majority of Penn Staters, I really do. None of them approves of child molestation (I'm sure that Paterno, Schultz, Curley, and Spanier don't either, they made a grave mistake by not taking McQueary's allegations seriously, and made a graver mistake perjuring themselves in a selfish act of survival), but a lot don't approve of the NCAA's handling of their situation. While I don't agree with them, they're entitled to that opinion (as is everyone on this board who shares that view)--and I'm glad to see they're channeling that frustration towards the support of their beloved team. Just like the victims, they were all failed by those four men; and I'm glad to see them uniting together towards a new future.
It's not so much for me that they still support their school...It's more so that they still won't accept that their false deity did anything wrong at all. It's more so that they all seem to have their heads completely buried in the sand and think that everyone's picking on them and it's all some kind of conspiracy theory. I'd still support my university but accept that a figure like Paterno or in our case Tressel was not bigger than the university itself and recognize that he did do wrong. We as the fans and the current players are being punished for Tressel and the tat-5s misdeeds and I accept that as our punishment. PSU fans refuse to accept anything of the sort. They still believe Paterno's legacy and the football program is god above all else and totally infallible. That's the issue I have with it. Not their claims that they're not punishing the right people with the NCAAs punishment handed down. This whole ordeal is just going to make them even more defiant it seems.
Hodge, I was with you until this:
That's not my understanding of what went down. I can see how you arrived at that. I think you have a more optimistic view of human nature than I do. All the parties involved in 1998 made a grave mistake in not taking the allegations seriously. 2001 especially in light of the 1998 investigation was a all-out cover-up. Not a doubt in my mind.
I hope you're right about culture change in State College. Like I said above, they get one year to show things are starting to change.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
@NC - There's no disputing that they purjured themselves, they all knew about the '98 investigation. They all had to have been at least suspicious about Sandusky, which is why they were about to turn him over (or at least get him to report himself) to the DPW following McQueary's sordid shower report in '02. My money says that they went to Joe, and he told them that since they couldn't be completely sure of what occurred, it would be best to not turn him in and create a firestorm of press around the school, the program, and Sandusky himself (it also would have ruined his life had be been innocent). If they had conclusive evidence of the guy raping a child (like video footage, etc.), there's no way that they sit on it. Instead, they saw it as more trouble than it was worth: especially since he was known to have boundary issues, had been investigated, and no charges were pressed. A grad student's heresay evidence wasn't enough for them; though it should have been enough for anyone with a pulse considering the man's past.
I don't dispute that it was a crime they committed by sitting on McQueary's report, that they're all culpable for enabling a pedophile, and that the institutional culture allowed them to act unilaterally in doing so. I only dispute the motives and knowledge of said men when they did it.
Why would they not take McQueary's report as conclusive evidence? Even if you're nothing more than suspicious in 1998, you have an EYEWITNESS report what he saw. That coupled with the '98 allegations I would say falls under the category of more than substantial evidence. A grad student's eyewitness testimony is more than heresay, it's just that...an eyewitness report of what happened. Mike McQueary even had his father present at the meeting with Joe to ensure that it was very clear to Joe that this was more than "horsing around" as Joe in turn reported it to his superiors.
@BOLT - To be fair, we really have no idea what in the Hell was reported to Joe and the other three. McQueary's story has changed about five times since his original testimony (so I'm putting zero faith in his testimony during the Sandusky trial), not to mention the fact that Joe and the other three mentioned under oath that McQueary's "report" didn't explicitly mention rape. Granted, these guys have zero credibility, as well, considering that all four purjured themselves before the grand jury.
Therefore, we don't know what they knew, and probably never will. Even the emails turned over in the Freeh Report refer to the scenario as "the situation". My point is that--no matter what was reported to them--they should have known to report Sandusky--his previous record made that quite clear. All I'm trying to do is illustrate why said individuals chose to rationalize not reporting Sandusky.
Well we'll be learning a little bit more about what came up the chain of command once we start getting to some of these trials regarding the administrators. If none of these people really have any credibility at this point -- and these are the most highly ranking officials and figures PSU has had in place for a long time -- what does that say about the university and these false deities that PSU supporters continue to worship as infallable. Best case scenario is that nobody really seems to have any credibility through this whole mess. Worst case is, well...
However, they still continue to believe that ol' beloved JoePa was incapable of doing wrong. "Well, sure...I mean, I guess maybe he could have done more," is the closest thing to a concession I have heard from anyone out of Penn State. Like I said, best case scenario he has zero credibility and crapped his pants during a game. Worst case scenario is he harbored a sexual predator, allowed him to use the program as bait, covered up the whole fiasco from start to finish....and crapped his pants during a game. This is not a man to worship. They're mortgaging the credibility of their university and fanbase by standing fast by someone who at best is just a man who has zero credibility...and crapped his pants.