PHONE'S RINGING -- IT'S URBAN ON THE LINE
not gonna happen. these kids were asked about the situation when they committed and all said some down the lines of "that coaching staff is gone, I trust this one."
Sure getting Johnson would be great, but I don't see this hurting guys who have committed to O'Brien.
It will be interesting to see of the Department of Education comes down on the university with sanctions and what effect (if any) that will have on future recruiting. H
It could effect something, scary stuff...
It's not about them trusting the new coaching staff at this point. The hammer is coming from the NCAA. I guarantee you it affects some of the recruits if the NCAA puts them on 3 or 4 yrs probation!! The kids made their statements before any of this new report came out.
And the situation is changing since they committed, trust me. Heck, it wasn't this bad & Urban got 4 to flip. I'm just sayin LOL
Nope...don't expect to see what we did last year with the flips. No tTUN or Penn State's guys will be flipping. Sorry but that's what I'm hearing/reading from the recruiting "experts"
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
I'd only like to flip Johnson, they can keep the rest LOL let's wait and see what penalty comes out before we say they'll never flip.
It will be over a year for the NCAA to do anything, if they even choose to..which I think they should.
There are two things that could shake previously firm commitments. First, NCAA penalties on the football program would, at the least, cause some PSU commits to reevaluate their decisions. However, I don't see any way an NCAA investigation and COI decision would be complete by NLOID. Second, a media onslaught similar to what we at tOSU experienced is enough on its own to start shaking the faith. If prospects keep hearing that PSU will get hammered, they might start believing it, and might decide they'd rather not risk going to a university where the future is uncertain. In either case, O'brien has his work cut out for him holding this class together.
This thread is in poor taste.
If you don't like it, don't post.
I don't see the NCAA touching this period. They don't want to get their hands dirty trying to deal with this. Much like the PSU leadership, inactivity is going to be their bread and butter
I think the DOE will nail them; I think the NCAA will investigate but take no action.
those "experts" prolly didnt see him flipping 4 last yr either. i think we will all be real happy with this class when all is said and done, Urbs is a monster (in a good way) not the sandusky way lol
mark may wins douchebag of the year... again
How is it in poor taste? Was it poor taste for urban to flip 4 last year when the story broke? I'll tell urban to stop calling Dorian :o). Don't think for a second that every coach this side of the Mississippi isn't trying to get Dorian to flip.
Not only will the NCAA touch this, they will be elbow deep in it. What they do as a consequence is up in the air and might amount to very little, but they cannot be seen as doing nothing in response to this scandal.
I agree with Young, this thread is incredibly poor in taste.
When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.
* There's nothing poor in taste about the thread topic. The reality that commits to PSU are going to start considering whether going to PSU is still in their best interest is going to happen, whether you like it or not. And even if the commits themselves don't think of it, I guarantee you that their parents will bring the topic up for discussion. Will they flip? Who knows. But the subject will come up.
* Sure would be great to get Dorian. Even if he leaves PSU though he may not come here. I think he was one who wanted to stay really close to home, so maybe Pitt if not PSU?
@ Youngstown and Badowl, Maybe the enthusiasm of the OP was a little excessive, but I think we can do without the sanctimony. How this scandal affects PSU recruiting is a legitimate topic for this board.
@thebadowl. You think this is in poor taste & have enough nerve to leave "I wouldn't cheer for Michigan even if they were playing the Taliban" after all your posts? Interesting
It's obvious a couple of you have taken it the wrong way. Let's rephrase it, PSU recruits are gonna flip after all is said & done. I wouldn't mind seeing Dorian in S&G!
No one said "Yeah, I'm glad he raped those boys so we can get their recruits!"
Facts are, this is going to effect their recruiting and their top recruit was a huge OSU target. It stands to reason a discussion on recruiting would look at this sitaution and say "maybe he will change his mind" based on the horrible details that have just came out.
@Razr, I agree, if Dorian was to change his mind I believe Urban would be battling Pitt for his services.
maybe this thread is disgusting, but here is something more disgusting: Jay Paterno. In the midst of the scandal breaking last season, Jay didn't say a word of sympathy about the victims. Instead, he shows us where his priorities are. In an interview before a game deciding the B1G Championship, all Jay can talk about his how the name "Paterno" had been removed from the trophy:
"Let's get there and win it and put it back on there. We'll bring our own Post-It note"
What an arrogant jackass. I've still yet to hear him talk about the victims. It's all about daddy & the precious PSU football program. This guy should be in jail, too. All those cowards knew what was going on, yet didn't do a darn thing.
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
I also agree that this is thread is inappropriate.
Before today I was in the thought that there would be no recruiting backlash.
After reading the report, it is pretty damning. I do not know the timeframe in which the NCAA could respond. They do not always act so swiftly or in a timely manner.
However, I think the university and football program could be facing some serious charges. If so, that will be in the minds of the commits. Some will be loyal and stay but I have to believe others may look around.
They committed to O'Brien but I am sure they were unaware of the possible penalties that the football program could face.
That is a fair assessment derek
If the NCAA by-laws for ethical university conduct matter at all, Penn State could be hit with the "lack of institutional control" label and lose a season of play, etc. I think players will rethink their commitments to that university at that point. We shall see what the NCAA has to say...
Quite frankly,...I'm scratching my head trying to think of what else would constitute a violation of NCAA by-laws 10.4 and 2.1 which "commands ethical conduct" from all college institutions then this very scandal. Does anyone think that the SMU recruiting scandal is more unethical than this one? I don't.
I doubt it could get any worse than covering up children being raped for over 14years. And that's only the years they know about.
I can see both sides, but the PSU put theirselves in this position, if hiding this is to protect the football team and their shiny program, or the legendary coach then they need to own up to it, after all these were pre-young men and we have no idea the damage that it brought to their lives.
if im a recruit there is no way in hell i wanna go to a school associated with this scandal. osu smu not that big a deal.... this though is disgusting
So I am still confused, What exactly does the NCAA have to slap violations on Penn State? I mean I just thought Penn State would deal with criminal charges. Also side note that is kind of funny, this article from FoxSports suggest the Death Penelty, which I think is just extreme, Here is the link
If the football coach has the power to tell his "superiors" not to go to authorities in this situation, AND THEY LISTEN TO HIM, I would say that the institution has lost control. If this situation isn't the gold standard for all Lack of Institutional Control accusations to be compared to than the NCAA might as well just quit trying to enforce any sort of rules.
Okay thank you @Maestro. That still wouldnt warrent anything close to the Death Penelty though, maybe just a bowl band or scholarship reduction.
I have no idea how we can really guage what the NCAA might do. They might do absolutely nothing, but I really can't imagine a worse example of LOIC.
NCAA is designed to govern athletics in the best interest of the student athlete and to ensure that all programs compete on a level field. The PSU scandal did not involve a student athlete and in no way gave PSU a competitive advantage. When head coaches get DUI's, or wreck motorcycles with young mistresses, the NCAA does nothing. Therefore the program will remain untouched by the NCAA.
However, this problem is a university problem, not an athletic one. Using the aforementioned head coach reference, it is the university that typically takes action. That being said, PSU has taken action to rid itself of the 4 people that apparently orchestrated the entire coverup. While what happened is terrible and unimaginable, it appears to be a direct result of 4 people failing to take action. If those four people are punished, what else should be done? Do we want another situation where we punish the innocent for the wrongdoings of a few? That's not for me to decide, but I am sure there are accrediting organizations and other academic organization that will follow up on this. Perhaps PSU will be placed on some sort of academic probation and that their administration and protocols will be in for a drastic overhaul.
Agree 100%. If this isn't LOIC then I have no idea what else could ever be construed as such.
Surprised you take that stance since the exact same thing could be said of Ohio State. We fired Tressel and suspended all players involved, even essentially kicked Pryor off the team when Fickell wouldn't return his phone calls. Yet here we are. Bunch of kids and coaches who had nothing to do with the "violations" being banned from a bowl with scholarship reductions. And say whatever you want, we had no competitive advantage. If tats give you an advantage, then concealing child rape at your football program and university constitutes as a recruiting advantage that you would otherwise not have due to the negative press that you're avoiding.
a good read
I think the issue is that, what else can the NCAA do but punish the current students. Everyone else involved is dead or gone. This did involve student athletes... because the people involved did this to protect the school and the football program. Hiding criminal acts to save face for the football program gave Penn State a competitive advantage because the football program would have been effected negatively had they came out with this. I can say it will be hurt even more now for not coming out with this immediatly, but that goes to show you what doing the wrong thing gets you.
To save face, Penn State facilitated further child rapes putting them just as as fault as Sanducky in my book. They did so for the football program, therefore the football program should be part of the punishment to show that there are consiquences for actions.
This is not meant to sound argumentative, but moreso discussionary - Name one instance where a wrongdoing by a university administrator, coach, or other university representative that was not related to a student athlete or recruit was punished by the NCAA. The OSU stuff was entirely different because student athletes were being granted illegal benefits as per NCAA law. As bad as this will sound, I don't think the NCAA has any laws about child rape. I don't think they NCAA has any laws about coaches that get in trouble with the law. The NCAA only enforces their own bylaws and I think this is outside the scope of those. And again, while I don't the NCAA will step in, I think you may see other academic organizations get involved.
"NCAA spokesman Bob Williams said attorneys for the legislative body have confirmed the Penn State circumstances apply to a possible violation of unethical behavior standards and possible violation of rules of institutional control and oversight. Williams said the NCAA has not launched an enforcement investigation but instead a review that could prompt a formal investigation if recommended by the NCAAs senior management group. "
I would say that the NCAA doesn't agree with you Optimistic. If what happened at Penn State with the head football coach essentially overruling his superiors in how they were going to handle an issue of ethics and legality does not constitue as a complete lack of institutional control, then I'm not sure they can ever apply LOIC again without the entire country laughing at them.
But I will say that I agree that they probably will do nothing simply because it's the opposite of what makes sense and whatever makes the most sense is usually what the NCAA ensures they don't do.
Optimistic- The NCAA sets new precedence all the time in how they handle issues that arise. Don't be surprised if you do see the NCAA get involved.
I could not disagree more with those people who think this isn't a competitive advantage or at the very least a sign of LOIC.
When you find out that one of your coaches is a child rapist, you report him to the authorities. I don't mean the governing administrative compliance board at PSU...I mean the police. Plain and simple.
The Freeh report, however, shows that Paterno and others were worried about a PR backlash on their beloved football program. Included in that has to be that they were concerned that such news would scare recruits' parents away from sending their kid to Penn State. Or that they were worried about an NCAA sanction or the like on their football program. Such as the one that's hanging over their head today.
Once they chose not to report him the first time, then each subsequent time they had to confront this issue they resorted to the same logic and convinced themsevles they were doing the "humane" thing.
The driving force at all relevant times, however, was their fear of tarnishing the football program at PSU. That's what's behind this. Penn State is a football school. Paterno is a football God. They let those facts compromise the duties they had to the student body, to their staff, and to anyone on campus visiting from a nearby charity--like the child victims here.
When you let the football program compromise your ethical protocol, you have no institutional control. And, yes, you did do it for a competitive advantage. You wanted PSU's footballl reputation to remain untarnished. Because it was this spotless reputation and your legendary coach that gave you a competitive advantage over other schools. It's what attracted the top assistant coaches to your school, it's what drove the top recruits in the nation to your school, and it's what led to the millions of dollars from boosters to your football program.
Penn State should and will be punished. Book it.
NCAA rules state that there is a command for ethical conduct on behalf of coaches and others associated with athletic programs (e.g. athletic directors and administrators) and those values should be present not only through athletic participation but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletic program.
So I ask you, do you think Penn State has violated NCAA rules? I believe they most certainly have.
People have as much right to post their opinions that this thread sucks as those who are eagerly discussing the the topic. Just saying. I get tired of the "if you don't like the topic - don't post" horse shit I see. Nobody preached at anyone - they just expressed they thought the thread was not appropriate. Maybe it is maybe it isn't but their view of the subject matter is as valid as anyone else's.
The world is full of kings & queens who'll blind your eyes & steal your dreams - it's heaven & hell - Ronnie James Dio.
@Tenn, they CERTAINLY have. Good Bold and Underline...
Ethical conduct score for Penn state -10 on a scale of 1-10. LOIC IMO hits around 3...
I am just playing devil's advocate here. I can see why the NCAA would not get involved. If the NCAA does go after them, then it will be because of the reasons stated above - that they did all this due to fear of compromising the athletic program. The NCAA will have to be able to relate this to athletics somehow and that may give them the link they need. Hence, why the NCAA is apparently on record calling it a POSSIBLE violation. Bobby Petrino did not abide by any ethical standards when he used his position to have an affair with someone he hired into the athletic department, but you don't see the NCAA going after him for unethical behavior standards. Everyone is forgetting that the NCAA control ATHLETICS, without a link to athletics I don't think they can do anything. But, as was pointed out, the Freeh report may have estblished this link.
I understand making devil's advocate arguments... but in this case the devil's advocate argument requires the NCAA to ignore child rape facilitation by every single leader of Penn State football and academics for the sake of the football program. Paterno did something on the side without the rest of the school's support or knowledge. IMO, he should be given a show cause for using his power the way he did just like Tressel has received. But the university did not contribute to the unethical behavior...
We will see what the NCAA will do. They may set new precedent here. But in the past, they have never went after a coach for breaking a law. Granted this PSU stuff is on a much more serious level than DUIs and other criminal law breaking.
They wouldn't come after a coach for criminal activity if it stayed contained to that coach.In this case, it worked its way up through the head coach, AD, and on up to the top. Heck, even the charity dismissed it because of Paterno, sickening.
Optimistic - I appreciate your thoughts on this subject.
You do raise something I had not thought about in regards to Petrino and his situation at Arkansas and his use of his position and its perks to have an extra-marital affair and hire his mistress to work in the program. His actions were unethical, for sure, yet as far as I know, as you brought up, the NCAA has not gotten involved. It does seem that not all unethical behavior is viewed in the same light nor are actions taken in each incident.
I don't know, I mean the reason I'm so upset about the Penn State stuff is the abuse that took place and could have been avoided. I just feel like something should be done. I do believe that the cover-up took place because protect the image of the football program and the Penn State brand.
As you said, we shall see...
Thanks Tenn, and by no means am I OK, apologetic, or pro-PSU, perhaps my opinion on NCAA involvement comes off this way, but that opinion is more reflective on the boundaries of the NCAA than the events at PSU. I think what happened there is among one of the worst things that ever could happen without death being involved. It is unbelievably terrible. Even more unfathomable is the sheer numbers of people that had a chance to do the right thing and alert authorities and did not, people at PSU and beyond. And I agree with you that it is disgusting how it happened and how it could have been avoided.
Check out Michael McCann of SI.com article (linked below) and specifically the section entitled "Legal and NCAA Implications for Penn State". He cites a couple Articles of the NCAA Constitution (including what TennBuck19 cited) and how one could argue that Penn State should receive sanctions.
Miami had recruiting violations up the wazoo (strippers, $, etc) and it seems as if the NCAA isn't doing anything. I wouldn't put money on Paterno coming away clean on this.
I see both sides of it and am definitely in the punish PSU corner. I do feel like however, Optimistic may be right that the NCAA stays away from this issue all together.
If they give a death penalty you'll have people crying its too harsh, if they don't give the death penalty, you'll have people say its not hard enough.
By abstaining for the whole situation, they can simply point that all living people have been prosecuted and it wasn't a football issue (even though it is)
Based upon their passive nature to date, I honestly do not see the NCAA becoming involved in this, as sad as that is.
I thought this was about a recruit and whether or not he would flip. Not about all this above I'm reading about. No one knows what will happen, but I'm airing on the side of what most are calling this...a legal matter not a NCAA collegiate matter. I see NCAA doing the same: Read this below and you'll see what more than us OSU fans are saying...like McCann at SI or Pat Ford at ESPN or w/e he is at...
BTW: please don't shred me...I think this a horrible situation and those victims were treated horribly by everyone turning a blinds eye that should have helped ones who couldn't help themselves (all to keep the integrity of PSU going...sickening). It should be lack of institutional control as well as the worst cover up in College football history. Lets face it though folks...as much as we may "want" something to happen...don't freak out if nothing does (or about ppl who think nothing will happen). As Carolina Buckeye said as sad that is, Sad isn't even close to defining this if the NCAA doesn't do anything.
Steensn - Miami is going to get punished. Just because there is nothing in the news NOW, doesn't mean anything. We likely won't here anything regarding sanctions until sometime during the upcoming season or even after.
"Just because there is nothing in the news NOW, doesn't mean anything. We likely won't here anything regarding sanctions until sometime during the upcoming season or even after."
That is my point... just because Bowden hasn't been punished yet doesn't mean he won't. Even in cases like Miami we have no insight into the NCA actions therefore, we canonot say that after one month Bowden isn't under the same thing.
I think th earticle misses one point on this, the question of "why?" Why did they have a cover-up? If it was to protect the football program then it is a football issue. If they made an active decision, because of the football program, to facilitate not acting on the first TWO instances and then facilitating further rapes for the benefit of the football program. To me, that is not only a criminal action but an athletic issue. If a teacher had done this, would the university handled it the same way? No way. The fact this was done by a long time Penn State football coach, pushed to be hidden by the long time legendary Penn State football head coach, and covered up by Penn State officials... all for the sake of the football program.
IMO, if the reasons are because of the football program it is then an athletics issue.
^^^^Totally agree brother...but doubt the NCAA goes after it. The DOE may go after them as mandated reporters like I am. I am mandated by law to report abuse, neglect or sexual misconduct. IMO this is where they're going to get nailed. NCAA can only go after the coach (who's dead) or other admin (who are gone...most of them). Players had nothing to do with this...that's where the NCAA will be hung up and not go forward unless use of the football facilities as well as The Second Mile being held at PSU...again...just IMO. BTW we can debate all day long, but the bottom line is what can the NCAA do??? I'm not sure they can do anything to the athletic dept because all that were involved are gone brother. Trust me...I want them to get at least probation...but again...i'm not sure what they can or will do.
As to all this s@#t about Miami U...sorry Cincy...but you're going to be disappointed when OSU and their admin looks like idiots for not sitting out a bowl game for that great 6-6 season. For what, oh that's right, to give the "seniors" a reward for their hard work...wow (and they were involved in the tat scandal). Miami will get nothing as well. Take that to the bank Cincy...PSU has more of a chance to receive punishment than Miami.
Yeah, but the same thing is true for anyone involved with USC or OSU. They all got their cash and tats and left before they were banned from the bowl game. It hasn't stopped them in the past...
Bhop - I already am disappointed, you think I'm happy to have no bowl game this year? And as far as Miami getting "nothing"...lets see whose more right. They will AT LEAST get the same amount of scholly reductions we received and could likely get a 1 year ban on top of the last years self imposed ban. Just because they weren't "in the news" as much doesn't mean the NCAA won't look at what they did as more serious.
Things are not looking good over there in College Park.
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