PHONE'S RINGING -- IT'S URBAN ON THE LINE
Hankins #11 on Kiper's Big Board for 2013 -
Think he leaves after this year or stays for a shot at a title?
He already has hurt his knee once, and I'm sure he is watching N.Williams too ... I see him heading for the money after this season is done ... I'd be very surprised if he stayed ...
I know this is an obvious statement to make, but I think it all depends on what happens this year. If he has a breakout year, which I expect he will, and if he's projected so high, I say he's gone. If he has a so-so year and his draft prospects aren't favorable, I think he could stay.
While I think winning a title is most likely very important to him, it would be hard to pass up being a 1st round pick to come back for a chance to maybe win a title (although I do think OSU will certainly be primed to make a title run in 2013).
Hope he stays, but I definitely expect him to go.
Good Thing we are recruiting Beast to replace him on the D- Line
Hardly home but always reppin
Still pissing me off Simon isn't getting the recognition. He could chump half of those guys on that list.
I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!
Simon will probably not be a high draft pick due to his lack of size ... and they say he is even slimmer this year ...
I think with Big Hank we are in sort of a "damned if we do/don't" situation. We hope for him to have the kind of year that merits the buzz he's getting, but if he does he's likely gone. If he doesn't live up to expectations, he'll probably be back for one more go.
Hank is a better pro. Simon is a great football player but is a classic Tweener. Hank is a legit, 1 gap Nose tackle in a 4-3 and can transition to be a 2 gap nose in a 3-4. Simon, as a pro, is not in the same ball park because he doesn't have ideal pro DT size or DE speed.
As a Bears fan who has enjoyed the Lovie Smith 4-3 Cover 2 system for years, I wouldn't mind seeing Simon play the 3 technique in that system where he's supposed to be a penetrator but I think he's too small for that. Tommie Harris (before injury) was the quintessential Cover 2, 3 technique but he played at about 295 pounds. Warren Sapp was the prototype 3 tech and he played around 305 too. As an end, Simon is probably not athletic enough off the edge.
With all of that said, he's going to land on an NFL roster. This dude has New England written all over him. Bill finds a way to use guys who can play. Simon can play. He just doesn't have the build for a DT or the measurables for a DE. He isn't a top 25 pro prospect, sad to say.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
@Brewster, agree with pretty much everything you say, but the trump card for Simon this year will be sacks. It seems to be the one stat that GMs love. If Simon can get to the QB this season, and turn in what will almost certainly be a freakish combine performance, he could still get off the board early.
I don't know. I like Simon, but even if he gets double digits this year he's a 4th round toy for a creative DC.
I disagree. I think Simon is fast enough and we will see it this year. Heacock kept trying to make him a DT and the move him all over the place, which is fine and dandy when there is no one outside of Hankins who was producing regular on that line (not to mention the mess at LB). This year, they will slim him down, throw him on the outside to play LEO or the strongside and he will show the speed that he has.
I wouldn't put it past him to drop another 5-10 and get down to 250 and become an OLB pass rusher in a 3-4. He could easily be someone like Tamba Hali or this year, Melvin Ingram.
@ Brewster, Double digit sacks for Simon would be an outstanding year, and certainly far from guaranteed, BUT there is nfw that Simon lasts until the 4th round if he puts up numbers like that.
Hali is actually a really good comparison because he played a similar role at PSU that Simon will at OSU. I don't think Simon has Hali's explosiveness but a year under Marotti may change that too. I love Simon guys, I think he's a monster but as far as pros go, because of the builds, I'll give my amateur nod to Hank every day.
"John Simon lacks a true position but sets the tone for the Ohio State defense, starting with his motor. Nobody outworks him. He's really more of a defensive tackle based on how he's been used and could be a good 3-tech at the next level."
John Simon #1 SENIOR Ends
Hankins projects better as a pro right now, just because he has a prototypical build. Although Simon could become a very good OLB, he has good straight-line speed, he ran a 4.6 according to Marotti, but it's his lateral quickness that is a question. A team could employ him like Clay Matthews, a glorified pass-rusher at linebacker.
While I agree with all the tweener statements you guys made about Simon and that is most certainly why Hank is above him on the Big Board, I don't think it matters. The man has the best work ethic in college football. If someone believes he can play OLB, he will slim down and get fast enough to play there. He'll never run a 4.4, but the man has wheels and will only get faster if he needs to. If he needs to put on some lbs. and play DT, he will do that too. I would absolutely love for him to get drafted by the Patriots because all you need to be successful with them is a motor. If you have that, their coaching staff will teach you and put you in position to be successful.
Don't give up... Don't ever give up.
I'm not attacking Simon as a pro. I'm addressing Kiper's (who by ESPN standards is a bright dude) thoughts that Hankins is a better pro. Hankins fits into a team need. When you are picking guys, especially in the first round-you look at your roster and see your holes (at least GM's are supposed to). If a team has a glaring need at defensive tackle, you should be thinking Hankins before you are thinking Simon. Simon is clearly one of the top 25 players in college football but isn't one of the top 25 NFL prospects. I'm not saying he won't be on a roster-he will. But he needs to be used in any number of ways you guys have all suggested-slim down to play LB, bulk up to play DT, speed up to play DE, whatever the case is. When something like that happens, a guy gets deemed a 'project' and unless you draft foolishly, you do not take projects in the first round. Simon will be some defensive coordinators new shiny play thing-again. Line him up inside, rush him off the edge, let him drop into a zone in a blitz package, cool. Give him 15-20 snaps a game of clever, creative use. Still-you don't make that player one of the first 32 guys picked, you can find more in the draft in that first round window.
That's all I (and Kiper) are saying dudes. Simon is a baller. He's going to smash teams this year. Pat Fitzgerald was a monster at Northwestern too. His cup of coffee in the NFL got cold real quick. Hankins is a legit nose who can move. Guys like that fit on any team. The same can not be said for Simon. He needs the right situation and that doesn't occur in picks 1-32.
I think pretty much everybody agrees that Big Hank comes off the board way before Simon. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure everybody agrees that Simon looks to be a classic "tweener" for the NFL. You seem to be saying just a little bit more than that. Earlier in the thread you stated that "if Simon gets double digit [sacks] this year he's a 4th round toy." I am saying that IF Simon gets double digit sacks this year there is nfw he lasts past the 2nd round. Outside of a QB, there is nothing that GMs value more than a guy who can knock that QB on his back. If Simon shows he can be that guy, he'll be far more than a pet project in the 4th round.
Couldn't agree with you more Brewster, some people just don't understand what the NFL draft is all about.
Why are we worrying about where Simon projects NOW. Let's wait until his senior year is over and how he performs in a system better suited for him. You forget, all the scouts are going by is what they have seen from him in the PAST. They have not seen the slimmer Simon who may be used in a capacity better suited to his skills. Lets see how he performs this year before playing the disrespect card.
I guess its how you choose to look at the draft, Saturday. I'm a firm believer that you pour your resources into drafting properly above free agency because its ultimately more cost efficient to keep your own guys than it is sign someone else's players. Someone can reach on Simon, and good for John if they do because that ultimately means more paper for him on his first deal. If I am a GM (man would that be awesome) I'm not looking his way until the 4th round or beyond. 4th and later he's an out and out steal. You can fill better needs with better NFL ready guys before that and he's a reach prior to the 4th. For the record, because he's a Buckeye, I hope I'm dead wrong and he turns into a defensive stall wart for someone for a long time. Again, I'm only an amateur (and a bad one at that) at this sort of thing but from my point of view, Simon isn't the type of franchise changing player you are supposed to take in rounds 1, 2, and possibly 3.
For the record-if anyone likes the Elvis Dummervil comparisons I've heard thrown around I'd implore you to check and see where he was drafted.
Can't speak for others, but I am talking about Simon now, because I'm having a lunch break, it's May, and football season is still 4 months away.
We're not far off on this thing. The point I am making is based entirely on an IF, and that "if" is whether or not Simon can get double digit sacks (to get drafted in the first 2 rds, I'd actually make 11 the magic number). There's a good chance he will not. In fact, if I had to guess his total this year, I'd put him at about 8-9. However, if he does get more than 10, he has demonstrated that he CAN become a game changing player. Just think about it this way, when was the last B10 player with more than 10 sacks not drafted in the first two rounds?
I hear you man. I do. I just need more than 10 sacks to move him up the ladder. I need either more height, more length or more speed.
Saturday - I'm not saying there's anything wrong with talking about football now. I was simply pointing out that SOME ppl are playing the disrespect card too early...the NFL draft is a full season away. There are too manys ifs ans or buts that can come into play. As of what scouts have on Simon up to this point, there are pretty accurate in their projections.
I do AGREE with you though, I feel that he will be utilized much better in this system and should hopefully be able to raise his profile.
I pray that New England takes him.
P.S.- Projects get taken in the first round all of the time.
Virginia D. End this past draft, tebow, tannehill(smh), aaron rodgers(i don't even remember him in college), Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder(injury prone).
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault.
I think you mean Bruce Irvin of West Virginia. The difference between him and Simon is that Irvin is insanely quick off the snap and has plenty of room to grow. While Simon is quick off the snap, he is not in the same league as Irvin in that regard (few guys are). Also Simon is maxed out physically, he's not really going to get any bigger. Not saying Simon can't be every bit as good as Irvin, but they're just different players and what Irvin brings to the table is something that can't be coached.
I don't really get bringing up QBs in comparison to Simon, that is very much apples to oranges. There is a world of difference between a project QB and a project DE/OLB.
@Buck Aaron Rodgers passed for 5400 yards in 2 seasons at Cal with a 43/13 TD:INT ratio and 63.8% Completion.
Dont forget that alot of people thought San Francisco was going to take him #1 overall, he is only considered a "project" because he ended up going to the Packers and backing up Favre.
Hank will stay, Urban has already formed a good friendship with him and will be well able to recruit his services for 2013, however if he leaves we have been recruting defensive line hard so idk i would rather have him but if he has to go, i understand that too
Guys mark my words John Simon will not make it out of the first round. I hear what brewster and the swede are saying. Hank will go before Simon, thats true; however, there's no way even with being a tweener he makes it out of the first round barring a serious injury. Just for the elitist I do know how the draft works ive honestly watched them all since ive been 5.
mark may wins douchebag of the year... again
I just don't see how anyone can claim he'll be a surefire 1st rounder this early in the game (few guys are at this point anyway). I think it's possible that after a great season this year and possibly a bit more position stability he could be a 1st rounder. However the fact is at this point he doesn't have a true position right now and he hasn't yet proven to have elite pass rushing skills. These are things that keep good college players from going in the first round of the draft. I'm a little curious as to why you think it is such a foregone conclusion that he will be a 1st rounder? You didn't exactly back up this claim in your post.
No one can claim that with speculating
I will say this... many are calling him a "tweener" and it is not a false statement. However, the guys that normally get labeled "tweeners" (or who are without an NFL position) had a specific position in college which they no longer have ideal size for in the NFL. Usually that is a guy who was a DE in college, but is too small and ends up moving to LB. Or, a safety who is too big/slow, and moves to LB, CB moving to safety, etc. These guys are "tweeners" because they are being projected in the NFL at a position they've never played. That is, they are being scouted and researched based on athleticism/potential alone rather than their body of work in college.
The interesting thing about Simon is he has already moved around quite a bit on the D-line at OSU. He has played DT, SDE, and WDE, as well as dropping into zone coverage once in a while. I think there is a good chance we may seem him lining up this year at all those positions as well as a rush OLB and possibly MLB. He is unique because he will already have a body of work off which scouts can base their ratings.
The thing about Simon is he will be a hot commodity at the next level because of his durability, flexibility (positionally), character, and motor, as well as his production. I have a hard time believing he will fall past the 2nd round, at most, because of that.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
Guys, we all want every Buckeye to be picked high. Its Buckeye nature, I get it. Simon, especially, is the kind of dude we'd all love to see be THE top pick in the draft. He won't be that or anything close to it. Simon also isn't a defensive end who moonlights as a linebacker. He is a defensive tackle who moonlights as an end. The NFL wants ends who are THE most athletic guys on the field and stand about 6'5-6'6. Simon isn't that. The NFL wants tackles who can move at 300 plus pounds. Simon isn't that either. He doesn't have the makings of a 3-4 edge rusher as well-at least not one you take with 1 of the first 32 picks in the draft. We are all getting really sidetracked here-the point the OP made was that Hankins is higher on a list than Simon and its denigrated into people like me and Swede saying we don't think Simon is a first rounder. I do not think Simon is a bad player-he's a stud. But when you point to a guy and can't point to his position, he doesn't go (read-shouldn't go) in the first round. The Bruce Irvin comparison is erroneous as well because Irvin will be a pure pass rusher. A guy brought in to rush the passer and do nothing else. Simon is not an elite, dominate his man all game pass rusher that the NFL wants. He isn't James Harrison (undersized bull rusher) he isn't Elvis Dummervil (Undersized Speed Demon) and he isn't Clay Matthews (A nice combo of those two). John Simon is a bad assed dude who is trapped in a college player's body. He will be on a roster because he can run and hit people. He won't be the first 5 players at any position taken in the draft.
Rick-Gotta do better than that dude. Just watching anything for a long period of time doesn't do it for me. I've watched soccer for 3 years and know bubcus about it.
^I actually think that Clay Matthews would be a good comparison for Simon. I see Simon as 2nd-3rd rounder, because he is a bit of a project in that he has to make the switch to OLB. Hankins will likely be a top 10-15 pick if he has a good season, just because he projects so well as a nose tackle.
I do like the Tamba Hali comparisons made previously, except the fact that Hali was an end moving to 3-4 LB, not a DT who plays some end possibly moving out another step wider at the next level. Similar but different.
I think that's a nice, opptimistic, not crazy optimistic stance. I think at 2 he might be a reach but by the third he starts crossing the line into "Steal" territory.
I'll leave it at this. I hope some NFL team reaches on Simon and he makes his way into the first round, I just hope it isn't me beloved Bears. Then again they'll be picking 32nd this year anyway so I guess it won't matter too much.
Your right I didnt back my post up with much. As all my post is pure speculation. I personally see Simon at around 12 sacks at the end of the year (Urban has said numerous times nobody on our line can block him). Also who does Urban rave about Hank or Simon? Simon imo will put up big sack numbers this year, great locker room guy, works harder than anyone on the field, durable, consistent, huge motor. Furthermore at the combine Simon will press 225 38+ times. This kid has a Tebowesque quality about him. Now that i showed my man crush. the thing I didnt take into consideration was exactly how strong this yrs crop of dlinemen is. This may be one of the strongest classes coming out in a long time with okafor and jeffcoat from texas montgomery from lsu taylor south carolina gholston at msu (who i think simon will end up ahead of) buchanon illinois werner from fsu lotulelei from utah and short from purdue. All that said I think someone is gonna take a chance on Simon 22- end of the first.
@ brewsters i wasnt aware you were an elitist. I will come better prepared in the future.
Sir, not sure why you're calling out Brewster as an elitist. Do you consider Brewster an elitist for having knowledge about the NFL draft and what teams histroically look for when evaluating a player or do you just consider anybody that actually takes time to support their opinion an elitist?
I was being defensive for not having a good argument. Its hard to have a valid point looking so far into the future. I just feel like you guys are just fishing for a debate and I dont have much support for my theory yet
But I'd like to think Swede and I do. History of the draft speaks for itself. Guys who don't have a true position at the next level don't get picked in the first or second rounds unless they do something better than anyone else ( Or unless a GM whiffs and makes a bad, early pick)-Bruce Irvin was the best edge rusher in the draft. Technically a LB\Not quite a DE, but the Seahawks took him because of his top tier pass rushing skills. Devin Hester was a CB to some scouts, a WR to others, but the Bears took him in the second because he was the best returner in the field.
NFL teams will look at some dudes and say "Ok well he might not be an end, or a linebacker or a whatever but man he really does this one thing well-better than anyone else we can take. lets go up and grab him" but nothing in Simon's game says "I'm the best XYZ". I'm being put in the uncomfortable position of attacking one of my all time favorite Buckeyes and its never once been my stance that he isn't a good football player. This whole thing started because of his absence on this list and Hankins' presence on it. Kiper is in the business of projecting NFL prospects and every single person in support of Simon has basically said the same thing-"Well he might be if he does this...." and my point the entire time has been "If you have to say that then he isn't". Its made me give off the vibe that I am anti Simon. Not at all. As a matter of fact if the football gods came to me and said "Mr. Brewster-Your Buckeyes are going to lose either John Simon or Big Hank this year on opening day for the whole season and you get to pick who is going to be hurt" I'll say Hank all day because Simon means more to this defense. But If I am a GM and I have to take a DT and both Simon and Hank are available, I'm taking Hank if I run a team that plays a 4-3, a 3-4, and 4-2-5, or a 1-5-5. Size and athleticism reign supreme at the next level in the first round. Hankins has both in droves, Simon doesn't.
I'm really disappointed in myself that I didn't get my point across this whole time. I'm sorry guys, I thought I was making myself clear.
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