Is this the start of a new 10 year war?
or
Buckeye dominance?
or
scUM dominance?
Just curious what the expectations are.
I think it will be a back and fourth battle. Both teams are going to return to their usual dominance and the Big 2 maybe 3 (Nebraska or Wisconsin) Little 10 will be back. Also I expect many B1G title game matchups.
Sidenote: And Delany will move the game out of the last week of the season.
War, for sure. We'll take out lumps, but I think we'll give better than we get.
I don't think we'll see a run like Coach Tressel had in our lifetimes again...that was legendary.
I think if Coach Meyer stays for 6+ years we'll be either 5-1 or 4-2. Michigan will be tough, but I think their outmanned in recruiting and in coaching.
Trench warfare. D/O-lines are going to be the area to watch during the games. Gonne get real physical
Hard to tell at this point. The way both schools are recruiting seems to indicate another 10 year war, but Dick Rod had really highly rated classes and fizzled big time at "The Game". We know with UFM's track record we will always be prepared for The Game but we will see what Hoke can do against an A+ OSU team instead of the C- team we fielded last year.
"if irony were made of strawberries, we' d all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now."
I'm waiting until the 2013 season to see what Hoke is capable of doing and then I'll go from there. My gut is telling me that he's a good coach though and that this is going to be a war every single season.
I for one am hoping for a return to the War! As much as we all loved JT's record and winning streak, I'd much rather have The Game as a highly competitive battle year in and year out rather than 42-7 or 37-7. Granted I'll take any W against tsun, but I'd much rather they thought they had a chance!!
Go Bucks!!
@Grayskull: I believe he had two classes in the top 10 his first two years (10th and 8th) then a class that finished 20th. I do want to note that 27 of those kids never made it on campus or ended up transferring! With one more being injured and not being able to play again. (Teric Jones) Which is absolutely ridiculous! We essentially lost a whole recruiting class because of all the bad decisions Rich Rod made and we are still paying for it now. The talent level on the team is still not where I am used to seeing a Michigan team be. Will not be till maybe the 2014 class rolls in.
As for the THE GAME, expect a war every year. The days of blowouts are over unless one team just does not show up that day. The talent level is going to be identical opposed to the last few years.
I had this in another thread. Thought it had some relevance here.
We are 8-2 in the past 10 years against these clowns. We lost one game because of an historical epic total program fallout, and even that game was on the road and could have easily been won if our inexperienced QB had been able to throw a catchable deep ball (which would have resulted in several touchdowns). To follow that up we hired a proven winner in coach Urban Meyer, who put together a top notch recruiting class that will go along with the previous highly ranked recruiting classes that Tressel put together. Classes that dominated Michigan.
Hoke, on the other hand, has had one good recruiting class and is putting together another, which potentially will raise the level of their play, but that is assuming a lot of things, the biggest one being that Hoke is a good coach, which is something we don't know yet -- especially given his previous losing record, his ranking in UM's coaching search, and the ease of schedule for UM last year. We don't know whether he evaluates talent well, especially with respect to the system that he is going to instill, and we don't know how well his system even works. Really, all we know about Hoke is that he is a native Ohioan that has a deepseated hatred for Ohio State to the point that he has unoriginally stolen THE most famous Buckeye's refusal to call Ohio State by name. The fact that he has to steal from Ohio State to make fun of Ohio State speaks volumes about his lack of originality and potentially how smart the guy is, because he clearly is not sharp enough to realize that no one at Ohio State cares if you call us Ohio.
But with respect to Coach Meyer, we know he has a history of winning and we can all see that he is out on the recruiting trail lighting the world on fire with the best from Ohio and from the rest of the country. So we know there is not going to be a drop off, probably more like a ramping up of the play and performance at OSU. There is obviously going to be a learning curve for this team getting in the groove with this new system, but I think we can compensate for that with respect to Michigan for two reasons: one, we have more talent (Tressel's classes + Urban's one class) > (RR's classes + Hoke's classess); two, we play Michigan the last game of the year, which means we have a whole season to adjust. Wait, one more: we play them at home. I predict another 10 years of Wolverine tears.
The only thing certain about The Game is uncertainty. To predict anything (return to the 10 year war, dominance by either team, no blow out victories, etc.) is a crap shoot at best. That said, you can bank on The Game being moved to the middle of the season. With both teams gearing up to return to excellence in the B1G, Delany will do everything possible to minimize the impact of the rivalry on the rest of the league.
7-3 Buckeyes
vacuuming sucks
The over thrown pass to Posey always comes up. If he does score, well we almost have two minutes to come down to hit a field goal and you could not stop our offense all day that day unless we stopped ourselves. Also, how about the call on the goal line. One camera view vividly shows Toussaint scoring. That play should not have been reviewed at all. It was an obvious touchdown. There is a bunch of IF's to go around in any game.
Also, sure maybe he was the third choice. But he is a blessing in disguise. Harbaugh would have been a good coach but I think he runs his mouth too much and would of done too many stupid things to bring bad publicity to the program. Would I have took him? Absolutely. Les Miles is the most overrated coach in college football and is a clown, I was glad we did not get him. He is incompetent; and if the national championship did not prove it I do not know what will. If he had success in a system that is not his and is supposed to be considered a foreign language to him, what makes you think that he will not be successful at what he knows?? Plus, it is Borges who runs the offense, Hoke lets him do his thing. Elements of the spread will stay according to Borges at the coaches clinic. He was always against it, but Denard has allowed him to explore more things about it and he admitted he likes some aspects.
If The Game is moved to October both fan bases should have their pitchforks ready right in the front lawn of Delany. I never want to see that!
My fav video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PymIQ3BuNYA&feature=related&safety_mode=t...
Describes why it is so special, if you move it to October, it is just another game.
I for one am curious to see Um's offense post-Denard. I think their defense will be stout now and for years to come with Mattison at the helm. But the offense is what I am wondering about. Does Shane Morris come right in next year (2013) and play right away or does Devin Gardner start as a senior?
While I hope for 7-8 wins in this next decade, I will be the rational person here. First, the argument from last year that scUM beat a C+ Ohio State team..We pretty much beat C+ scUM teams for the past 7 years. Second, while I think Urban will do a good job, I think too many people feel he is the greatest coach to ever step onto a sideline. I may be pessimistic, but is it coincidence that he won two NC's with Zook's recruiting classes? It seems to me he then left when the cupboard was bare.
It scares me that scUM got this good this quick when Hoke doesn't even have his players in the system. They'll most likely lose 3-4 games this year, and we'll all feel like we knew they weren't going to be too good. But they probably play the toughest schedule in the country. Yes, I'm pessimistic so here's hoping that we win 8 out of the next 10. However, I'm thinking it will be more in the 5-6 range.
If Meyer is here 6 years I'd be shocked at anything less than a 4-2 record. His record against rivals (21-3) is ridiculous. And a lot of those were against top 20 coaches. Do any of our Michigan contributers know what Hoke's record against rivals is? I'm interested to see what Urban pulls out for Michigan this year as you know he's going to pull out all the stops. His first game against them, in the Shoe, and basically our bowl game for the year. Hoke better be ready.
TOSUMAN - I would not say we beat C+ UM teams for 7 years. I'd rate them like this:
2004 - B+
2005 - B
2006 - A
2007 - B+
2008 - HAHAHA
2009 - C-
2010 - B- (A Offense, D Defense)
Urban won the first NC game (41-14 anyone) in his 2nd year @ UF with mostly Zook's guys. But I don't think its correct to say that the second NC he won in his 4th year there was with Zook's guys. The large majority of those guys on that 2nd NC team were Urban's guys that he recruited.
Lol ya I can, just tell me who the rivals of Ball St. and San Diego St. are first.
2-1 at Michigan though, 3-1 if you count Minnesota (The little Brown Jug!)
And one thing both fan bases will always agree on:
Moving the Game is the stupidest idea ever. Delaney will get mugged by someone if this happens. Dave Brandon and Gene Smith would probably need to go into witness protection as well.
@Rational - we don't count Illinois (the Illibuck) as a real rival, do you really count Minnesota?
@JDADAM: I would switch the 2005 and 2007 years grades. I thought we were better in 05. Too many things went wrong in 07. That 05 game was such a heartbreaker, that one still bothers me just as much as any of them. Up nine with 8 minutes to go. Damn you Anthony Gonzalez!
Also, the 2010 team was not a B- that was a C- minus team. The Defense did not deserve a D that was an E defense! Also, was not an A offense. They never scored when they needed too. They always scored late in games when the game was out of hand. (Iowa, Wisconsin )
@JDADAM: No I dont, but do not underestimate how important the Jug is to the players and coaches.
Jdadams01--
I'll agree with you on a few of those teams (04-07). However, I would say '07 was a C+ team when we played them with Henne and Hart injured. However, '08 and '09--hahaha is correct.
@TOSUMAN - I understand your rationale towards Meyer's percieved godieness, but I think your a little high on Hoke haha. I'm not disputing what he did last year--t'was incredible. But, keep in mind if RichRod was coaching that team, they probably win 9 games. Mattison was the difference maker. If anything, Borges' offense crippled Denard early on in the season (then they got wise and let him operate out of the spread), though he didn't get himself hurt this season--which would have been a foregone conclusion had he been running in RichRod's spread. Michigan also benefitted from an exceptionally favourable schedule (like OSU will have next year) and had Virginia Tech all but gift wrap them the Sugar Bowl.
Not trying to say the man isn't worth his salt--because what he's done on the recruiting front is worth his merit, alone. But, I need to see a few years under his watch to truly believe he's elite. Next year's game v. 'Bama should be an excellent measuring stick: if they can keep it close, I'll be impressed. I'm not saying Michigan's not back on the up-and-up, but I want a year or two more of sustained excellence before I'll call them elite again.
For what it's worth, I'm much more scared of Devin Gardener than I am of Denard Robinson. Gardener's less explosive on the ground, but doesn't rely on arm punts to advance the ball through the air.
I honestly don't think it'll be close. TSUN will need to adapt their offense to something other than straight Brady Hoke pro sets (which I assume Morris will be the first to adhere to).
Just my thoughts.
With Zook's guys? Seriously? Maybe Chris Leak was Zook's guy but he was a mess when Zook left. That program was horrible, I lived in Jacksonville then! They sucked!
Half of that 2006 team was Meyers players and that half was the leaders of that team. 2005 was Reggie Nelson, Louis Murphy, David Nelson and Keystahn Moore. 2006 was Tebow (who did contribute alot to that team), Percy Harvin (who killed OSU) and Brandon Spikes.
and none of Zook's guys were on that second team!
IMO, the 2005 was the most talented of them all...some how 20 NFL draftpicks translated into a 7-5 record.
1. Pierre Woods
2. Lamarr Woodley
3. Gabe Watson
4. Morgan Trent
5. Zoltan Mesko
6. Tim Massaquoi
7. Mario Manningham
8. Jake Long
9. Chad Henne
10. Mike Hart
11. Leon Hall
12. Matt Gutierrez
13. Tyler Ecker
14. Shawn Crable
15. Prescott Burgess
16. Steve Breaston
17. Alan Branch
18. Jason Avant
19. Adrian Arrington
20. Jamar Adams
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
@Hail - that is a ridiculous amount of talent. What do you think held that team back?
A few facts:
- Borges tried to implement a pro style-ish offense early on and Denard did not get it
-He went back to a spread/pro hybrid and Denard got more comfortable, but wasn't great
-Denard wasn't the only one that didn't fully understand the offense
-Borges will have the luxury of not having to teach the system, but instead can work on learning plays and how to excel in the system
-Denard enrolled in time for fall camp his freshman season and was nothing more than a running QB---his passing was dreadful. After a full year under his belt, he threw for 2500+ yards
-Michigan's OFFense last year scored more PPG than RichRod's final year running the spread
My predictions:
-Denard will turn some heads this season as a passer
-Michigan's defense will be a bigger concern than it's offense
-Michigan will win in Columbus
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
Dont expect another 7 year run - expect more games that have conference title/national title game implcations.
- Respect the Rivalry -
@JD
A lot of the guys were sophomores, but I really don't have a clue. Perplexing to me. The losses were by 7, 3, 3, 4, 4. The only game besides OSU that I remember clear as day was the Minnesota game. One of their RB (I believe it was Marion Barber) broke off a 50 + yard run when they were trying to run the clock out and head to OT. They kicked the gw FG as time expired.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
@Hai, My predictions for the year:
- Denard at best will be a "kordell stewart" type player in the NFL
- I actually agree that the defense will be more of a concern than the offense (after watching the spring game)
- There is NO way scUM wins in the 'shoe when that is really our "bowl game", Urban is one of the best "big game" coaches out there (from his former players and his "big game" record speak for themselves) no way he lets scUM come into the shoe in his first year and beat him. However, let's just agree to disagree on this one.
For tOSU:
- Our offense will look better than expected going into the league schedule. There will be growing pains early but by the time we hit the league schedule we'll be going full go. The "spread style no huddle" will catch teams off guard early as there is NO other offense like it in the B1G, however by the time we play scUM most of what we do will be out there so it should be a close game.
- Braxton will grow into his own and will turn some heads as a "passer" , since we'll be throwing the ball much more.
- scUm loses by 10 in the 'shoe
- the one struggle I'm sure we'll have is who is going to step up besides Braxton and be the "play maker" this offense needs to work. I think Hyde, Hall, Stoneburner have the ability to be it in the running/and short passing game, but the deep threats either need to be Fields or Devin Smith and hopefully one of them steps up.
Sorry you lost me at "Denard will turn some heads this season as a passer".
He is a thrower, not a passer. If by that you mean completing more jump balls then yes. I don't think they'll win in Columbus...the OSU defense will be too much.
Jason, as far as the D, you do realize there were a lot of backups and even walk-ons playing on both sides of the ball, right? I rewatched most of the 4th Quarter last night on BTN, and I noticed Dalton Britt playing D-Line for the gray team. We weren't seeing many of the 1st teamers out there for the entire game. Plus, I thought I heard Coach Meyer told them to basically dumb it down as he didn't want them blitzing a lot, etc. Plus, come Fall we're adding guys such as Spence, Adolphus, Schutt, Cam Williams, Jamal Marcus, Boom Perkins, Armani Reeves, Devan Bogard, Najee Murray... You get the idea.
I'll touch on a couple things in this thread.
1) Brady Hoke's "losing record" isn't really a fair test to his ability as a coach. He took over two absolutely dreadful teams in Ball St. and SDSU. I mean dreadful. To use his "losing record" against him is a jab that doesn't look below the surface at all.
2) "Pro-style" covers a whole lot of ground. What you're going to see from Borges & company in the future is more in line with a West Coast offense, and Shane Morris is a prototype West Coast Offense QB. This isn't gonna be three yards and a cloud of dust.
3) To give the 2010 defense a "D" grade is too generous. That defense with Greg Robinson and his stuffed beaver (go ahead - the jokes here are pretty easy) was just abysmal. Mike Martin just referred to it in an interview as "backyard defense." Those boys weren't getting coached at ALL.
4) Gardner will start as a senior. Bellomy could get a year after that. You guys might not see Shane Morris until 2015.
Denard made some huge passes late in that game last year. His accuracy can be questioned at times, but there are times where he is on point with it. He hit Dileo and Hemingway on BIG plays late in THE GAME last year. I believe one of them was on 3rd and 8. Denard can pass the ball effectively, those that want to doubt him, I hope they are Defensive coordinators of opposing teams.
In the 2012 edition of "The Game," Denard will be running away from a stellar D Line group. If he happens to get away, then he'll have to deal with a faster LB group. If he decides to throw, well, he'll be throwing against some pretty good DBs as well.
I most definitely like our chances at home this season.
Just looking at this year's Game logically (trying to be unbiased...and I know this is way early):
Matching up the position by position:
OSU D-line vs. UM O-line - edge has to go to OSU. Our line should have at least two high draft picks with incredible depth. I don't know how any o-line will trully stop our 8-9 deep d-line this year.
OSU O-line vs. UM D-line - this one is harder to predict. For now I'll say even. If OSU's OL can stay healthy, they'll be in the top 3-4 of the conference. I think UM's DL will greatly miss Mike Martin and as of now, they don't have a Simon or Martin type player to really create problems. Someone may emerge, though.
OSU Linebackers vs. UM run game - Shazier will be a monster, Sabino will be at least serviceable, and Grant will be at least above average. The reports on Grant from practice were all that the light had come on. Fitz is a solid running back, but there are a number of backs throughout the conference that I'd take over him. How they contain Denard's running will always be the main concern. Our LB corps this year will be more athletic and faster than last year's, so this will help. I expect Urban and Luke to be working on this all season and to have something special in store for Denard. Even with that, Denard is an electric player and will make at least a few plays. His downfall is in fumbling the ball. For now, unless Denard turns into Mike Vick, I'll say even.
UM Linebackers vs. OSU run game - Edge to OSU. I almost put this as even, but we should go legitimately 4 deep at RB this year (my reasoning for this is that Meyer has stated that our 4th string RB, Dunn, will get game time). UM's backers have not impressed me for some time. I know Mattison is knowledgeable about Meyer's offense, but Meyer will bring wrinkles because of this. Also, Braxton is as dangerous on the ground as any QB in the nation and will get his plays, like Denard.
OSU Secondary vs. UM Receivers - Edge to OSU. OSU's secondary returns starters at every position and all will likely be draft picks. Our nickel back also has extensive starting experience. After three years in the program, Denard still threw way too many questionable passes and jump balls last year. UM does not have one WR that worries me. There are no Manninghams in the 2-deep...yet. There is some talent and someone may emerge, but for now, I can't point to any game breakers.
UM Secondary vs OSU Receivers - Edge to UM. UM has finally gotten a real 2-deep and is returning experience. OSU's receivers are unproven and young. Someone may step up, but we won't know until this fall. Until they do, UM has the edge.
Special Teams - Even. OSU has reliable returners that have the potential to be game breakers, but they haven't done it yet. Our punter returns from a solid season last year. Same for our kicker. The punt protection will be improved under Meyer as he personally coaches the ST. UM's returners didn't blow me away last year, but they should be at least reliable. Hagerup (correct me if I'm wrong about him being back) will be a good punter this year.
QB's - I know UM fans will howl about this, but I'm saying even. Denard is in his fourth year and still hasn't shown the ability to pick apart a defense with his arm. He may make the leap this year, but I'll believe it when I see it. On the ground he's electric as long as he's healthy. Miller has grown quantum leaps since the Sparty game last year (seriously, watch the tape of that game and then rewatch the spring game. Mechanics, footwork, and confidence are all vastly improved since then). I think Denard would beat him in a straight line race, but Miller can make people miss as well or better than Denard. On the ground I think they are even. Both have a lot to prove this season in the passing game.
Coaching: Edge to OSU. Mattison knows Urban, but Urban knows Mattison. That cancels the Mattison advantage that I've heard a lot of UM fans gush about. Head to head with Hoke, no school in America would honestly take Hoke over Urban. His history of big games and rivalry games is well documented. Fickell is at least as proven a defensive coach as Borges is for offense. Throw in the fact that this will be Urban's super bowl this year and he will be ready for this game.
To check this I ran this by two coworkers (a Boise fan and a Nebraska fan) who both rabidly follow college football. They thought that it was as unbiased as possible and pretty accurate being this early.
Overall, you have to give the edge to OSU and that's not even considering that the game is in the Shoe. I guarantee that this game is one of the craziest atmospheres we've had since the USC night game. For now, OSU still has a talent edge on UM that Hoke is still trying to catch up on with recruiting. The X-factor in this game will always be Denard. Will his passing catch up to his running? Will he cut down turnovers? Through three years in the program, both of those questions are no. We'll see this fall.
@RATIONAL - He's a serviceable passer, but let's face it--if he wasn't a gamebreaking runner, Gardiner would be taking reps under center. I'll concede that The Game was probably the most complete game I've ever seen him play as quarterback; but for every game where he shows flashes of brilliance through the air, have games like Notre Dame where he got by throwing jump balls and exploiting broken coverages late in the game. Also, if he doesn't have an awesome day passing, OSU wins that game--we made him beat us through the air, and do it he did (only 167 yards, but 14/17 with 3 TDs and no picks).
I'm not saying he won't make strides this year (and if he makes big ones, he'll be a serious Heisman contender), I just don't think he'll ever get to be the efficient passer that Troy Smith/Russel Wilson was. Just my opinion, I could be wrong--it has happened once before.
@JADAMS - At this point, Robinson is the better guy to have behind center. Midway through the season, I think they'll be even, and by The Game, I think Miller will have surpassed D-Rob as a QB. Robinson is still the bigger playmaker though, unquestioned.
I'd also give Fitz some more credit, he may be expoiting defenses' fear of Denard, but he's a legit runner--I'd put him only behind Montee Ball based on what I've seen. Based on how our LBs looked last year, you've got to give them the edge--at least for right now. Like QBs, this will be a fun one to look at later on in the season.
Regardless, that was an awesome write up!
And before I get asked, the RBs I'd take over Fitz are (and this is just off the top of my head, mind you) White, Ball, Redd, Bell, Burkhead, Hyde, and Dunn (this last one is probably biased. The kid is one of the most game ready freshman RBs I've seen though.)
@bassplayer: If Denard gets through the D line you said he has to even deal with a faster LB group yes that is true. But Denard is still faster than those backers lol. Denard will be the fastest guy on the field.
@JDADAM; That is a good overview made there, I do not think the qb's are even, but it is closer than the majority of Michigan fans think. Also, OSU linebackers do not impress me, only Shazier does. I still laugh when I see Sabino trying to tackle Denard last year. Also, you bring up our running game. Toussaint dominated last year and Denard is also a pivotal part of our running game. I would agree with the rest. Can be close with your D line and our O line.
@Hail, rational and any other UM fans
I am not going to sit here and call Hoke a bad coach or even hold his past coaching endeavors agasint him. After the recent histroy at Michigan im sure he had no problems getting his kids to buy in, or selling immiediate playing time to recruits.
The truth is however, without a national title or even a big ten title, Hoke is not a Made Man in the big ten or nationally. I believe he is a good coach but untill that happens, lets stop using him as an asset in OSU v Michigan arguments. What has he really done?
- Respect the Rivalry -
Denard may be faster than them, but he won't be facing a 70% Shazier either.
In short, unless we have a lot of injuries, Denard will have a much harder time getting through the front 7 this season.
@RATIONAL - Toussaint had 1041 yards and 9 TDs last year. There are a large number of RB's who matched or surpassed those numbers. And that is with a good O-Line and teams having to account for the threat of Denard running. That isn't dominating. He's a very good RB, but he's not top 3 in the conference.
If you swapped Toussaint with James White, I honestly believe that would've been a 1500 yard, 20 TD season.
Also, my faith in OSU's LB's against the UM run game has something to do with our D-Line as well. Urban will truly rotate 8-9 guys this year and I don't see Fitz or Denard having a monster running game against them. The speed/athleticism on both the DL and LB corps has been upgraded a ton.
JD, I ask that you name me three better in the B1G right now because I'm stuck after Ball and Burkhead (maybe).
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Most of JT's years the game was a war. The blow outs only came during the RR years. The game can still be a war with win team coming out on top the majority of the time. I personally believe Ohio State will win more than lose. This year I think is Michigan's best chance of the next 3 seasons and even a that I don't see this year's team losing. The whole season will lead up to tha game, more so than any other since it's their final game no matter what this year.
John Simon, Stoney, and the other great seniors aren't going out with a loss. After this season Urban's system will be in place and he'll have the playmakers he wants. I think 2013 and especially 2014 are going to be great years to be a Buckeye fan. Maybe when Braxton and others will be gone. If Michigan doesn't win it this year, I really think Meyer is going to start off 3-0 against Michigan.
@Brewster - you would take Toussaint over James White, Redd, or Bell? Redd was the entire offense for PSU last year and still got his. Bell ran behind a patchwork O-line and still played like a beast, while often splitting carries.
Just gonna throw out stats for RBs in the Big Ten last year:
RB 1 - 244 carries, 1241 yards, 5.1 avg, 7 TD's
RB 2 - 182 carries, 948 yards, 5.2 avg, 13 TD's
RB 3 - 307 carries, 1923 yards, 6.3 avg, 33 TD's
RB 4 - 187 carries, 1041 yards, 5.6 avg, 9 TD's
RB 5 - 141 carries, 713 yards, 5.3 avg, 6 TD's
RB 6 - 284 carries, 1357 yards, 4.9 avg, 15 TD's
One of those RBs truly dominated. The rest had very good seasons. Out of them, Fitz is 4th in yards, 2nd in average, and 4th in TDs. He is also the only one to have Denard Robinson standing next to him in the back field (who is only the most dangerous runner in the conference). He is a very good back. Elite? No. Dominant? No.
@JDADAMS: You said our running game. our running game includes Toussaint and Denard as well....they were well over 2,000 yards last year. That is an explosive running attack. BTW I would definitely take Toussaint over Redd or Bell. If Toussaint did not have Denard with him he would have put up even better numbers. But to be honest I dont care where he ranks in the big ten. Michigan fans know what kind of runner they have there. So, basically he may not have dominating numbers but our running game as a whole is dominating.
Didn't Fitz only start for part of the season? I could be wrong on this one
He really started to burst onto the scene during the Purdue Game, So, yes you can argue he did what he did in 3/4ths of a season. He played all year, but had limited carries early in the season.
I don't think he's anything special, more like an extremely solid, dependable carrier. He's a guy you can definitely be confident in and build around. But I don't think his number necessarily reflect how good he actually was.
He will not win a Heisman but he is a solid Big 10 running back, slowly becoming my favorite player on the team with Jake Ryan. One of those players where Michigan fans appreciate him more than the rest of the country or big 10 for that matter.
I won't get hung up on arguing who dominated and who didn't because its a subjective term. Toussaint's a damn good RB, one that defenses have to worry about and that's compounded by the fact that the best dual threat in the country is in the backfield with him.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
I do want to clarify that I would've have gladly taken Touissant over any of our RBs last year. He had a better season than most expected and poured it on some teams. I am interested to see how he does this year with a downgraded O-Line. If he comes out and has the same results, I'll be very impressed.
@JD
Edge by position:
QB: Mich
RB: Mich*
WR:Mich*
OL: Mich
TE: OSU
DL:OSU
LB:Mich*
CB:Mich*
S: Mich
ST: OSU*
*Pretty equal, but more experienced team gets edge
Fitz will have 1500+ yards this season, barring injury.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
@hail....you better be right about all your "predictions" or else.....it's going to be a interesting time for you after the season is over on here (I can see the threads now). Of course the same could be said for us, if we aren't right, you, M man, rational will have a HAY DAY with it. I'm sure EVERY other poster disagrees with you on your "advantages", but isn't that the nature of which team we root for?
Hail, I disgree with your assessment with RB, CB and possibly QB. Braxton is coming on strong this year and I believe could surpass Denard, but that is to be seen.
OSU's stable of RB's is far superior. UM's RB are more experienced but the talent level at OSU is much higher. and I would include with that the FB and mobile QB.
I agree with CB being fairly even so perhaps you should put even. Just to say UM has the edge because of experience doesn't mean anything. You can have experience by getting burned alot more as well and I wouldn't say that is better.
I do agree with the rest of your assessment although I would put alot of emphasis on the Dline!
My predicition is that the game gets moved so it is no longer the last game of the season as soon as the B1G starts to fear the champ game will be an immediate rematch with any sort of regularity. Having moved to earlier in the season, it loses much of its luster. It also becomes largely irrelevant since in the B2-lil10 the OSU-Mich game that "really matters" will be the championship game.
The Game died a little the moment the B1G adopted a conference championship game. Now its is just a ticking clock until non-Championship matchups of OSU-Mich are no different than OSU-Wisc or OSU-PSU.
Hail - I can grant the argument for QB, OL, and RB (although I do think any edge UM has at all three will not be there by the end of the season). But at S and CB? How do you figure? Barnett will be a 3rd year starter and was an All Big Ten performer. Bryant is coming into his second year as a starter and is one of the most physical secondary players in the league. Howard and Roby are both returning starters and will be playing in the pros.
I wouldn't even give the edge at QB to Mich...I don't care who he plays for (including if he was tOSU's QB), I think Denard is sooo overrated. The kid can run like no other but he's not a QB. He can be a game changer with his legs and thats about it.
"Love my State, hate the football"
If Urban lasts for the next ten years, I expect him to be one win better in The Game than JT.
We honestly don't know who the QB edge goes to until we actually see how Braxton does in a real game with this new offense. He'll get better as the season progresses, and Denard will probably get better as well, in his second year in that system.
Running back is a push IMO. If Carlos Hyde was our feature back last year, he would have put up better numbers than Fitz. I don't think Fitz is nearly as good as the UM fans think he is, but that's not to say he's bad by any means. And by the time the Michigan game rolls around, we could see Brionte as the starter. But in UM's offense, I think all of our running backs start over Fitz except for Hall, and I think that's a push. Overall, it's close, but I think we have the edge.
With receivers, UM has the advantage for now. I think Devin Smith will step up big time, and I think we'll see Philly Brown/Jordan Hall make some big plays out of the slot this year. Mike Thomas could develop into a very consistent target, not necessarily a gamebreaker, but very good 3rd down target, and for all we know, a guy like Fields, Reed, Epitropolous, Southward, etc. could step up as well. And of course, Stoneburner is a mismatch that I think Braxton will exploit a lot this season. But with our receivers, unproven doesn't necessarily mean inferior. UM's receivers are good, but ours could be just as good.
Our offensive line looked sloppy during the spring game, but that might be more of a testament to our defense than anything else. I don't think our O-line will be as bad as everyone says. Once again, unproven doesn't mean bad. It also doesn't mean good, it just means we don't know.
I think our defensive line will be VERY good. It's hard to argue that. Simon and Hankins are monsters, Carter is a giant, Nate Williams could be a gamebreaker, Spence will be an elite pass-rusher (I think he'll mostly be used situationally), Washington and Pittman will also make a big impact, then we also have guys like Moore, Goebel and Bellamy who would start at pretty much any other B1G school.
As for linebackers, Sabino, to me, looked GREAT during the open spring practice, and much better than last year during the spring game. He looks much faster. Shazier will be in the conversation for the Bednarik, he's a freak. And it looks like things are starting to click for Curtis Grant as well. Then we have guys like Dave Perkins, who's going to be a similar player to Shazier, with a TON of speed (reportedly ran a 4.2 at a workout), Cam Williams who will make an impact as a freshman, and other guys like Roberts (looked very good this spring), Perry, etc.
I think that we'll see a lot of Perkins, Shazier and Cam Williams against UM, since their speed plays much better against Denard than, say, Sabino's size. We can also mix and match guys on the D-line to match up better against UM's strengths.
The secondary is an area of concern, at least as far as depth is concerned. I think Reeves will play a big role. Brad Roby will be an all-conference corner, and hopefully things start coming together for Travis Howard. Ohrian Johnson has looked incredible this spring, and Bryant and Barnett have been making plays. I think we're very solid, but in third down, passing situations, I'm not sure if we can rely on the nickel and dime backs, and if a starter goes down, we're in trouble.
I think we'll also get an edge on special teams, because Urban places such an emphasis on it. Don't be surprised to see multiple blocked punts this season, with guys like Hall, Brown, Shazier, etc. rushing in on punts.
UM will be very solid, no doubt. It's hard to defend Denard, and they have a solid line and a good group of playmakers. I think we'll have a few hiccups, since it's our first year with the spread, so I'll give UM the edge on offense... for now. It depends on how well things click this fall for our offense. Defensively, I think we have an advantage, and I don't think it's close.
Also, the 'Shoe will be rocking and the players will be more fired up for this game than we've ever seen. I think Urban will throw in a few wrinkles (he always does) on offense, and I think we'll win by a solid margin. Not a blowout, but I could see us winning by 10+ points.
I wouldn't cheer for Michigan if they were playing the Taliban.
Let's say Urb stays 10 years. I'd say he goes 7-3 or 6-4 at worst. It's possible that he could go 8-2, but that's more unlikely than 7-3 or 6-4.
Can the B1G just make one exception just once and make this a night game!
" I went for two cause I couldn't go for three."
-woody Hayes
It will be a night game when Delany succeeds in moving it to October.
I still don't think it will ever be a night game, save B1GCG. There is a reason this game is typically at high noon. There would be so many fights and rioting behavior if the home team lost. People would be tailgating all day long.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
I applaud this thread! Finally a rational discussion of the Game! Great points on both sides of the discussion. I live in the Toledo area, and most UM-OSU discussions are about hurling insults (as are a lot of posts on message boards!). great to see.
Just curious on why everyone gives us the edge in so many categories for next year's game? I think scUM is predicted (by betting sites) to win the Big Ten. We have around the fourth best odds. We might just be good money if we can make a run as underdogs.
TOSUMAN,
Probably the same reason fans of pretty much every major program thinks their team has a shot to go undefeated every year. You know, the "If we pass, run, block, tackle, defend, create more turnovers, and execute better than our opponent, we'll definitely come out on top," kind of thinking.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
If they do move the game to october I would love to see a night game. That being said, Hail makes a great point so they would have to beef up the security and be ready for drunken tough guys trying to start fights.
I can't think of anything worse than playing The Game in mid-October. That would be an embarrassment to the history of the rivalry. It needs to be left alone. The powers that be can get over the issue of watching the same game 2 weeks in a row.
The "problem" of playing The Game two weeks in a row was created by B10 pinheads when they split michigan and OSU into separate divisions (don't get me started on Legends and Leaders). It would be typical of these pinheads to "solve" this problem by totally destroying the nature of the rivalry by moving it up to October.
@Hail, comparing positions is close to meaningless in predicting the outcome of a particular game since, for example, the OL and the OL don't play against each other. The real question is how does the OL match up against the DL, etc. In this case, while I might give the michigan OL the nod over our own OL, I do not give your OL the advantage over our DL. Similarly, although our OL has lost some starters, so has your DL, and I see that match up as a wash right now. We'll see who has replaced those starters with greater quality as the season develops.
CBUS...I can. If they put The Game on a rotation like OSU vs MSU and Nebraska, whereas we might not play for 2-6 years at a time. That would be much worse.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
Ahh Saturday,
I don't disagree with you. But honestly, comparing stats, rankings, film, or anything else on paper is pretty meaningless when it comes to The Game. You can't measure heart, desire, and the way it will play out. The best team going in isn't ever much of a favorite, save RichRod fiasco.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
@Hail I hope they aren't dumb enough to do that, but I wouldn't be shocked if it is proposed. Hopefully the fan and alumni backlash would be enough to stop it.
I'm just saying, Mirror Lake isn't nearly as cold in October...The whole tradition just isn't right unless your body temperature is bordering on hypothermia.
@CBUS
I don't ever see it happening, and moving the game up in the season will unfortunately happen some day. After a few years, we would accept it and it would become the norm. The fact is, the divisions did put a strain on the impact of The Game.
If Michigan beats every team in the Legends division and the other 2 teams from the leaders, even if they are beat by OSU, they still earn a trip to the B1GCG. While it will sting for us fans, the days of the season being spoiled in the 3rd or 4th weekend of November will become a rarity.
If 2006 was replayed next season and both teams are 11-0 coming into their meeting, the first game would do nothing but hurt one team's shot at a national title. If they meet in Indy the following week, and the other team won, then what? The B1G champion goes to Pasedena but neither team likely gets a shot at a title (unless we have playoffs by then).
At the same time, if we were in the division and both were undefeated going into the final game, odds are we would be playing a team that was 10-2 or worse. So while one, Michigan or OSU would sit at home, a team that they beat in the regular season, with a worse record would occupy a spot in the B1GCG.
I'm realizing I don't like the divisions.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler