To all eleven warriors members: I am a lifetime Browns fan, and I would like to know everyones opinion on the Washington Redskins giving up three first round picks and this years second round pick to move up 4 spots in this year's NFL draft to get RGIII. Personally as a Browns fan, I am relieved. I think the Rams really made out on this, and I am glad the Browns didn't have to mortgage their future for 1 player. Don't get me wrong if RGIII was at #4 I would take him, just not giving up so much for one guy. My opinion: Draft the best talent on the offensive side of the ball, and fill in some of the holes on defense. If you want to get a QB go after Jason Campbell in FA. He is serviceable and no one really knows how high his ceiling is. His whole career he had a different offensive coordinator each year, and last year in Oakland he was pretty good, I would rather have him than Flynn, b/c Flynn is (to me) a poor man's Scott Mitchell. So Browns fans are you happy/mad we didn't give up all the picks? Who do want to draft? Are you willing to trade down? I would draft Richardson at 4 (Hillis ain't coming back & he's a diva) and go for best WR on board at 22 (Floyd, GT kid).
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I saw that last night and though I'm not a browns fan I would think this is not good news for them. RG3 could help them from day one. I'm not sure how his game will translate to the NFL but he is a playmaker. I don't think T.R. is worthy of a #4 pick.
If the Colts take RG3 that would be awesome.
I'm not a Browns fan but having lived in the great state of Ohio for four years I have sort of adopted them as my second team. (Note, I'm a Bears fan so I'd like to consider myself an expert on bad draft picks). If I were Cleveland I'd actually go another route. As it stands, I'd assume the first three picks go Luck, RG3, Kalil. If I'm Cleveland at 4 I'm taking Justin Blackmon. He appears to be an instant impact guy that can give the entire offense a boost. On down to 22 I'd think you address defensive line and if Upshaw is available, i think he's your guy.
As for the deal, Washington over paid. RG3 isn't worth the next few years of a franchise. I really think Washington (again) jammed themselves.
Edit after reading Tampa-Agreed. Richardson, or any RB for that matter isn't worth #4. This is a pass first league. Franchise running backs are a dying breed. Teams don't have to commit major money to a guy who's career is statistically shorter than any other player on the field. Richardson is already damaged goods too isnt he? I'd go WR\DE with 4\22. I don't know if Cleveland is running a 3-4 still but Upshaw can play in either scheme. He might not fall to 22 but if he's there, he should be a Brown.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Long time Browns fan. What they need is a RT and a WR who can get separation. I think that Colt can become the next Brian Sipe. Not sure if Blackmon has the speed for a #1 WR, so I might trade down as there are a couple of possible tackles and receivers that you can get later on in the first round (Hill from GT and Floyd from ND - although there are some issues there)
If you stay at 4, maybe Claiborne out of LSU for corner - Sheldon is getting a little long in the tooth
And I'd resign Hillis
Having a franchise quarterback is by far the most important thing in the NFL. If Griffin hits, Washington made a great trade. If he busts, they didn't.
Well it looks like Peyton was enjoying his official visit to Denver so I don't see what other option the Washington really has.
Agree with Lamplighter mostly. I think you either take Blackmon or trade down and get a different receiver a few spots later. You can still pick up a pretty solid running back late in the first round too. I don't know if he fits the Browns defense (don't follow NFL too closely) but that DT out of Memphis is a freak if he stays healthy he could easily be a Wilfork or Pickett/Raji like presense for a lot of years. Claiborn wouldn't be a bad pick up either if there is another WR that might be available later on that the Browns like.
I like Blackmon, I don't love him at #4 b/c he is only 6'1" and I think the Browns need a big target. I like Floyd, Stephen Hill, and Jeffery and we can get them later. Although both Floyd and Jeffery have had some off field problems. The Browns have 3 picks in the top 40, and I would love for them to get a RB, WR, and DE with those 3 picks. I would like to go after RT in the third. I know its a pass first league, but I think Richardson can be a game changer, and we could address WR at 22, I am sure one of the three receivers I listed are comparable and bigger than Blackmon and will be available IMO.
I am a Browns fan and I have to say that i will be very happy if they dont go after another QB and finally fix that piss poor O-line and get a really good strength & conditioning coach or get some tougher players. In the past several years the Browns O-line has killed many QB's, build an O-line like the Patriots have, they can plug in any QB and the Oline gives them all day to throw. The Browns running game was ok at times but still doesnt get the blocking it needs.
I hope they pick up some really good O-linemen and a couple WR's & 1 or 2 TE
O H I O is the Buckeye State
@ RDUBS: We address DT last year with Phil Taylor, he has been impressive. Defensively we need an elite pass rusher, among other things.
No player is worth 3 years of first round picks. Im thrilled that browns didn't give that up, because we have way to many holes that need filled. As for our pick, I definitely say Blackmon at 4. He's a big time playmaker and could be a top target for McCoy. At 22 we need either a pass rusher or a back. I could see us taking Williams out of VT with that pic or our 2nd round pick. Also, I believe we take either Weeden or Tannehill at some point
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
Browns fan and I am bummed, I desperately want a franchise qb.
That being said no way I give up 3 number 1s and a 2 to move up 2 spots.
Browns fan...seriously relieved. I am using our first round pick for a serious WR talent (maybe even 2) and then a o-line pick up. has to be the offensive side of the ball. I am completely on the wagon that with the proper surrounding cast, Colt McCoy is a WINNER and will succeed. Ever since i went to the Fiesta bowl couple of years ago against my beloved Bucks i knew he was a winner. Colt has NO recievers to throw to right now and the current imposters need stick em ala Little Giants status. They need to also pick up a power back in free agency and i'm looking straight at the Giants newly departed big boy.
"Winter is coming" - Urban Meyer
oh..let me state one more thing...we are tired of waiting. Stop stockpiling the picks b/c when you think you are breaking out with more picks and we don't have immediate impact it's getting old. Do not trade down. Use your picks
"Winter is coming" - Urban Meyer
blackmon simply isn't worth a top 8 pick. he's not as good as julio jones or a.j. green. similarly, richardson is a rare rb prospect, but there's a very deep rb market in free agency. trade down into the teens (and add picks) and take a rg or rt. the right side of the line is embarrassing. david decastro or cordy glenn have hall of fame skills.
hgvyt54trtfvt56
dontari poe will be a bust. just another example of a kid who is a mediocre football player but a combine wunderkind.
hgvyt54trtfvt56
The Browns will probably trade down again this year. I actually like the move. Is Blackmon really worth the #4 pick? Idk. But we could trade down, land an additional first or second rounder, and still get a good WR/OT. After Kahlil, the OT talent seems to be about on the same level. Floyd, Jeffery, Wright are all some WRs who could be available.
All I can say as a life-long Browns is that I'm glad that they didn't pay that much for RG3...too many other needs.
"It's just another case of there you are". ~ Doc (1918-2012)
Browns fan here. I agree with you on feeling relieved and having no doubt that RG3 would have been the pick at 4, but no way I'd give up that much to move up. I would have given 4, 22, and a next year second. Obviously that's nowhere close to what the final deal ended up being.
As a football and NFL fan in general, this move sets a very scary precedent for future drafts. The Redskins just traded first pick value to move up to the second pick in the draft. They just traded more than the Giants gave to move up and get Eli Manning. That's the biggest worry for me.
My draft plan is Blackmon at 4, Kendall Wright at 22, and a RT or RB at 37 (I think that's our second rounder). I would then push for Flynn in free agency. Hopefully Peyton goes to Miami, which would take out a major player for Flynn's services. I know Flynn is a risk, but this team needs to take risks. Once we get him, we have a totally revamped offense with Little, Blackmon, Wright, Evan Moore, Ben Watson, Montario Hardesty, Brandon Jackson, and hopefully one more RB acquired via draft.
Also, I would pay Mario Williams whatever he wanted to be opposite Jabal Sheard. He is free agent priority number 1. Now, Heckert says we won't be players in free agency, but they're fools if they don't make a splash. This fan base is starved for something to be excited about.
I was a Redskins fan for several decades. That ended about 10 years into the Snyder era. Now I root for them to fail so badly that he gives up and sells the team. This trade is a fine step in that direction.
I clicked on it... I regretted it immediately...
@DMC: I would LOVE Mario Williams, and I agree I too am worried about the precedent Washington made to move to #2. Interesting that was more than the Giants gave up for Eli.
I can't believe how much WASH gave up to get RG3. ST.L made out here. I know WASH. feels like this is "their guy", so their willing to give up whatever takes to get him in place...and WASH. has been so QB-starved the past decade plus.
I'm not saying RG3 is a product of a system, but, I definitely think that Baylor's offensive system helped inflate his numbers.
For comparison: Terrelle Pryor. RG3 is clearly a better QB prospect than Pryor right now. But...is RG3 that much better than TP? (Keep in mind the level of competition, too). They are both athletic freaks, and RG3
probablylikely has a better head on his shoulders as far as maturity goes at this point....but, I don't see RG3 leaps and bounds above Terrelle Pryor's potential. Either WASH. overpaid too much and this kid better be the second coming of Cam Newton in his rookie season or people will start calling him a bust, because of the pressure involved in WASH. with regards to what they gave up for him....or the Raiders got a huge bargain in TP...which will pay dividends down the road. Or both."You win with people." - Woody Hayes
I'd like to see the Browns trade down to the 6-9 range as well to pick up Michael Floyd, then use their 22nd pick to either get a tackle or a linebacker. Luke Kuechly out of BC is a stud and will be the best linebacker out of this class, better than Ingram, Hightower or Upshaw, mark it down. If they can't trade down, take either Claiborne and solidify the secondary for the next decade or take Richardson, they guy is another A. Peterson, will be able to tote the rock 30 times a game effectively, considering that Hillis's situation is uncertain.
The entire Browns organization is a joke, somehow their blinded fans seems to ignore this fact year after year. The team is going nowhere.
@Cbusbuckeye: Excellent rebuttal. I love how you so eloquently use the English language.
Trent Richardson would sure make McCoy look better.
So the 'Skins get RGIII, and then have no picks to put anyone around him for the next couple years. I'm fine with Cleveland not making a trade like that.
@William Let's be honest, where do you see the browns in 10 years? They have become one of te least important franchises in the NFL, it's a shame.
They had the 10th best defense in the league this year. McCoy can be a decent starter. The O-line must be solidified on the right side, they need a consistent running game, and a game-breaker at WR, considering Greg Little will become an excellent No. 2. Give the team 2-3 years and they could be tops in the AFC North.
"McCoy can be a decent starter." Not good enough for me. This is a QB-driven league, so it shouldn't be good enough for any of you Browns fans.
Look at the 49ers, absolutely elite team with a decent QB. The same goes for the Steelers and Ravens.
You're in denial if you call Ben Roethlisberger a decent QB. Also, there's a reason 49ers rumored to be interested in Peyton. Also, Alex Smith was a first overall pick. Finally, Flacco 10x>McCoy.
what did the patriots do after tom brady blew out his knee? they put in a scrub named matt cassel who never even started in high school, and they proceeded to go 11-5. the lesson to be learned here is that a football team is composed of 22 starters. trent dilfer has one more ring than dan marino because of the differences in the 21 guys each had around him.
furthermore, there's a reason peyton manning has no interest in playing in cleveland. the roster simply has too many holes.
hgvyt54trtfvt56
Roethlisberger is a decent QB, as is Flacco. They aren't great QBs, you're in denial if you think they are. The same goes for Sanchez. The point is, you don't need a stellar QB to win it all or be a consistent playoff team.
Excellent post, Mastermind. As a Browns fan it really irks me that so many other fans have already written off McCoy. He's only started what, 20 games or so? Not enough talent around him, especially at WR. Weak on the right side of the line and multiple injuries at the RB position this past season as well. Give him some semblance of a supporting cast and see what he can do before we start searching for the next QB.
Although the Browns didn't win many games last year, they were at least "in" most of them. Not sure you could ask for much more with the state the offense was in.
I think you're wrong on Roethlisberger.
What has McCoy done to deserve such a faithful following? Flacco and Roethlisberger had amazong rookie years and continued to build. I don't get the following with McCoy
What has McCoy had to use? Both Flacco and Roethlisberger had excellent defenses and several offensive weapons. The only thing McCoy had this year was a decent group of tight ends, and the defense just began to become elite.
Seriously? We're probably gonna be stuck with him next season, but you're deluding yourself if you think McCoy is good QB. You do realize he has worse stats then Tim Couch, who had signifcantly worse weapons. Brady Quinn is a better comparison to McCoy then McCoy is to Flacco- let alone a guy who's won two super bowls.
McCoy can develop into a perfectly decent QB. Look at his body of work in college. The guy has the tools to run the West Coast offense. The Browns had no running game, and have one good wide receiver in Little. Give the kid time for Christ's sake. They literally learned this offense DURING the season. They had no off-season camps to help them learn the system. Give it time folks. Instead you guys will pull the Cleveland fan crap, where you get impatient after 1-2 seasons and start demanding for more change.
I am really glad the Browns didnt give up that much for RG3, I really like Blackmon at #4, I don't care if he is 6'1 he is insanly good, and he seems like a really good kid, I would never take Ingram at 4, RB are not the thing anymore, they get hurt to often. They need to help McCoy out, get a good WR whether its Blackmon or not, and get some O-line help, If they trade down that is fine if they get a good WR, and get a couple O-line guys and a Pass rusher. I think their secondary is pretty good and they are young they don't need another first rounder back there.
Agree to disagree I guess. I look at his body of work in college and I see him making short throws to recievers who do all the work in a conference that doesn't play great defense. He doesn't have great arm strength, and considering his strength coming out of college was supposed to be accuracy, he hasn't been very accurate in the pros. (I know drops haven't helped him, but even on throws he completes they aren't consistently great. I.E he's always a little low, or a little behind his receivers.) I like Colt as a person, but at best I see see his ceiling as average, and right now he's not even that.
I'm estatic we (the Browns) did not mortgage our entire future for RG3. Three 1st RD draft picks is A LOT.
First of all, huge browns fan here. Have been for as long as I knew what football is. I'm about to get long winded here, so bear with me. Colt mccoy has a following because he is everything good about football. He's not a whiny diva. He's tough as they come. And he has the intangibles you need in a starting QB in this league. He's a leader, and he will give evrything he has every play of every game. You can't judge him by the numbers...he is running for his life every single snap he takes. No qb would have pro bowl numbers when he is getting planted on a consistent basis. And when he has no semblance of a consistent run game, teams will keep that safety out of the box and sit back in coverage all day. And with the blatantly obvious seive on the right side of the line, you don't have to blitz, so your backers can sit in coverage as well. So he's looking at 7 on 5 on every pass play. The fact he can extend plays with his legs shows he's most likely throwing on the run pretty much every time he drops back. So maybe his accuracy is a little off, but its not because he can't throw the ball. Its because he doesn't have time to set his feet and throw the ball. Not to mention he's a gutsy little SOB. He gets hit more than any qb in the league...he's not taking a lot of sacks, but he's getting punished. But he always gets back up...knowing full well he will be getting blasted the next play. We have changed qbs too much...give colt the offseason to learn the offense before you judge him unworthy and clamor for someone new. that's all I have to say about colt.
As far as the draft, anyone who watched blackmon in the bowl game should have no qualms about him being a stud. He wasn't even full speed, and he went off. He's big, physical, fast and runs good routes. He's the kind of wr you can't pass up. So he's 6'1...big deal. Wes welker is 5'9, so is steve smith. And id say those two are pretty damn good if you ask me. He has the ability to get deep, separate and make big time plays. We have traded back enough...use the pick, and get a big time wideout. With the 22nd pick, you have to get a right tackle. Period. Steinbach will be back this year, so the left side is set. Mack is a hell of a center. If you get a solid staring caliber right tackle, then right guard becomes a plug in position. But tackle is a position of desparate need. As is depth at linebacker. Fujita and gocong are decent, but are both getting up there in years. We have hit the jackpot as far as d line goes in the last couple drafts. And sheard as a pass rusher showed he has the skill set to be elite. With and offseason in an nfl strength program, he should be able to bulk up enough to be stout in the run game as well. But you have to address the lb position early in this draft. I'm not sold on hillis being done...I believe whole heartedly they should resign him, and draft a depth guy around the 3rd round. And depth in the secondary would also be something to look at. But you have to go wr, tackle, lb off the bat. Those are the most glaring holes you have. And RB by committee situation won't hurt, especially when you have a little depth. Hardesty is an injury case, but ogbannaya looked solid this year, and I fully believe hillis can be an asset going forward as well. Brandon jackson is an unknown due to being on IR last year. so take a guy mid round...don't reach for a guy out of fear he won't be there when you want him. Richardson is good yes, but not 4th pick good. I would hope doug martin from boise is there when we pick in the 3rd round. Definitely a kid I like a lot. And would be a good place to get an rb. This is just my take...I'm no expert, just a fan with a wish list.
You guys need Blackmon, I've seen the boost that AJ Green gave my Bengals. A go-to wideout is a great way to boost a young qb's confidence.
I am so glad we didn't trade 3 first and a 2nd for RG3. He's a great player but the Browns need more than a QB to solve our problems. Here is where I think our immediate needs are
That being said if our only need was a QB I would be okay with the trade but we need much more. As of now here is what I would do
4th pick- Draft the best player there reguardless of position. Top 5 picks should be future All-Pros. If the front office thinks the best is Claiborne draft him and have 2 lockdown corners. If they think its Blackmon draft him and fill our WR hole. I am not big on Richardson because RB don't last in the league and aren't worth a top 5 pick .
22nd pick- Here I'd start to semi-draft to fill a need but DO NOT overstretch if there is a stud there that fell draft him and build a team around him. I would be looking RT/ WR here if there are none worth a 1st round pick start to fill this need in the 2nd round.
Other rounds with OSU players- I'd take a hard look at Posey if he falls to the 5th round for the Browns. I think he could make an impact in the NFL. Adams wouldn't be a bad pick with our later 1st round/ early 2nd round pick either
First off, big time Browns fan, current DC resident. The Skins practically practice in my backyard, so they are the preferred teams in these parts. Every year, it's the same story:
Skins win the offseason, receive an A- from John Clayton
This is something that Browns fans will never see the Browns do. This story, on the other hand, may look familiar:
The Skins have a lot of talent, but come up short when they need it the most.
Sound familiar? It should. Both teams finish with identical records every year, picking high and waiting for better talent. The only difference is the Skins can't utilize their talent.
Every week, I watch the Skins on TV (because the NFL is so broken that only 4 games are on a week. This is why I love the Big Ten Network.) and see them lose and lose and lose to the worst teams in the league and beat some pretty decent ones in the middle of it.
Do you think Colt McCoy is really bad? Try being John Beck and not ever winning a start in your career. That's how good the Browns have it, we don't have John Beck. John Beck may look better than Rex Grossman on TV, but the truth is that he is not a clutch quarterback. What happened to Jason Campbell? These idiots (Snyder in particular) traded him to Oakland. Maybe Snyder should have thrown himself in that deal, too (hence the Trade Snyder t-shirts that are common in the DC metro area).
The one time I DID get to see Colt McCoy on TV in a Browns uniform, it was on Thursday Night Football against the dreaded Steelers. The Browns didn't score a touchdown, but Colt looked like he was running for his life. He made plays that weren't there, he bought extra time, but no one bailed him out, he did all the bailing out to the point where he couldn't do it anymore. Happens to the best of us.
This may look familiar as well. Remember when McCoy was a junior at Texas? When Texas switched to the Jim Bollman playbook, McCoy made all the plays when they needed to be made (given that he had Jordan Shipley and Quan Cosby) but he had NO RUN GAME WHATSOEVER even though Texas would always try to establish the run with young running backs that couldn't get the job done. Must be tough filling in Jamaal Charles' shoes.
What's my point? Colt McCoy is a very good quarterback who can pick up his team, but until the receiver and O-line questions are solved, we won't know how good Colt McCoy really is.
Besides, if all else fails, Matt Barkley will be available next year, who IMO is better than RG3.
/Duff'd It
Another lifelong, diehard Browns fan here.
So...what are you guys thinking now that a couple days have passed? Hillis is gone, meaning we absolutely have to sign a RB either in the draft or free agency. And we may well have picked up the DE we needed to go with Sheard in Fronstee Rucker from the Bengals. OL Pashos was released, and Steinbach is set to be released next. Heckert announced that the Browns would not be major players in free agency (which I don't understand considering the number of holes we need to fill to get this team on the right track).
So with that said, are you fellow Browns fans leaning the same way in who you think we should draft?
RB - Should we now use that #4 pick on Trent Richardson since Hillis is gone and it's doubtful we sign a solid FA? I know most people have said that #4 overall is too high for any RB, but he is said to be the most solid and complete RB since Adrian Peterson. Or should we take our chances with another later round RB prospect?
WR - Should we go with Blackmon even though we can probably get a solid WR at #22? I'd still love to get Jeffery, Floyd or Hill, but #4 is too high for them and they'll most likely be gone before #22. I personally believe that Jeffery will be the best pro of them all. This is also a position that I wish management would try to make a splash in free agency since there are several very solid WR's out there. And yes, Posey would be a nice pickup if we could grab him with a later round pick. This is actually one scenario that I would be game to trade down a few spots, pick the WR we want, and an extra draft pick or two.
OR should we take the best player available at #4, which should be shutdown CB Claiborne?
DE - the Rucker signing is supposed to be a done-deal, so that should eliminate the need we had there.
LB - we definitely need some help here, whether through the draft or FA
OL (RT) - the right side of the line is a glaring weakness, and definitely needs addressed. We could go after someone like Adams with the #22 or #37 pick, or we could try to pick somebody like OT Mitchell Schwartz as late as the 3rd or 4th round.
QB - I'm not sold on Tannehill or Weeden. I say we stay with McCoy and see how he performs with talent around him. Or if we were to go after a FA I'd prefer Campbell over Flynn (not sure what kind of salary Campbell would need, but Flynn is too high and don't think mgmt would go for it).
Any new thoughts? I'm more excited about this year's draft than any year I can remember. We absolutely have to make this a very solid draft, after having so many failures in the past.
I heard a rumor, we were trying to trade for RB Ben Tate from Houston yesterday (from ABAO on STO). Although the news-herald is saying this is just a rumor and it has "no legs", take it for what its worth.
Little bummed we are getting rid of Steinbach. I don't see us doing much in FA b/c H&H keep stressing they will build through the draft. I think Offensive line, RB and WR are the biggest needs, and LB to go alongside Jackson is a need as well.
Mary Kay Cabot of the PD says sources tell her there is zero chance of a trade for Tate.
Personally I think that the Browns will be targetting WR, RB, and OL with our 3 picks in the first 37. With Steinbach gone and his return in doubt, the need for both a RT and a guard is magnified. I would go Blackmon at 4, OL at 22, and RB at 37. Very frustrating to be a Browns fan facing another year of Colt McCoy and Seneca Wallace, but my frustration would be even worse if they took Tannehill at 4. If they trade down to ten or so, pick up extra picks, and pick Tannehill, that's different.
Lets get the Trent ideas out of your heads here guys. The NFL is a passing league. If you are a 49ers fan, I'd like your thought son the subject but that team, as good as their defense is, will not-I REPEAT-WILL NOT win a Super Bowl with Alex Smith as your quarterback. When its money time (read Playoffs) you need a big arm and a big ego to convert downs that Alex Smith can not convert. As for Richardson-I read an Adrian Peterson comparison out there? Come on dudes, not even close. I know its the sexy thing to do come draft time. You take a player expected to be a top 20 pick and you compare him to an existing NFLer. Sometimes it works. I like the previously made Blackmon\Green comparison. But when it comes to running backs, don't compare anyone coming out to AD. There isn't anyone like him in college or the nfl and there hasn't been anyone like him since MAYBE Eric Dickerson.
You absolutley need good QB play to win you a game. People are over stating Alex Smith's value and under stating Ben's. At one point in his career, Ben was a game manager who had the luxury of a great defense. Big Ben can go out and flat out win you a football game now-that is what every team needs. Colt McCoy aint it.
Blackmon and Upshaw at 22 if he's there. Tannehill in the second makes sense to me.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
No way he is there in the second. I'd be shocked if he was still there at 22. Browns botched there chance to get a difference making QB and are stuck with Colt McCoy or whatever project or 30 year old they select in the draft. This team might be lucky to win 4 games this season. Holmgren makes me miss the Phil Savage years, at least Phil seemed like he was trying to field a winner, however misguided some of his moves were.
As a Brown's fan, please for the love of god, DO NOT DRAFT TANNEHILL OR WEEDEN. Tannehill wasn't even a top 3 QB in his own conference, and Weeden could be ready for retirement after his rookie contract (seriously, he'll be 29 by next season). I say draft WR, RB, OL with your first three picks and go all in on offense. The reason for this is next year the front office and fans will either have a competent, improving offense or will clearly be able to see that they need to look elsewhere at QB. This is fine with me, considering that Matt Barkley will be available next year.
As to what the actual strategy should be in drafting? Besides the obvious of staying at #4 and taking Richardson/Blackmon, a creative strategy is that they can trade back to mid first round, they can take Floyd/Wright/Jefferys at say approximately #15 plus another one of those 3 #22. I think a Floyd/Wright Combo would be great and I would take two WR in the first round as long as they didn't plan on getting another in the late rounds (look for Tommy Streeter from the U and Posey). Because of the tradeback, that gets us another possilble 2nd rounder? With those second rounders, I would take the best OL/RB available. In the third or fourth, you can fill whatever other needs you want to (LB, more OL).
Don't give up... Don't ever give up.
Swede-Tannehill has no business being a first round QB in my opinion. That's why I thought second round or more makes more sense. He's a project who has a raw skill set that needs refining. In my opinion that immediatley makes him NOT one of the best 32 players available. I don't really love him in the second either but someone will reach for him. If they reach in the first, shame on them. If he's available in the 2nd-go!
As for the 2 WR's in the first round. That may sound ok up front but it becomes a problem down the road when you have to pay both of them on their second contract. Not to mention-People sell the WR's learning curve short. It is the second hardest transition to make from college to the pros. Do you really want to invest so much of your future (2 first round picks) at a position that historically misses (First round WR's)?
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
I don't disagree with that, my point (that I didn't make clear) is that Tannehill, by virture of being the next QB in line behind Luck and RG3, is going to be drafted much earlier than he should. Just like last year with Ponder going at 12. His value skyrockets, fair or unfair, because he is a quarterback. I wouldn't be shocked to see him go in the top ten. I just hope it isn't my team taking him that early.
I feel like anyone at this point who says we need a QB is not a true Browns fan and did not watch the games, or just has a pure lack of football knowledge.
Here's what I would do even after the free agency signings
4th pick-Blackmon or Claiborne- a top 5 pick should be a future pro-bowler pick the best player period and build a team around him no overstretching. NO Richardson he just had surgery and RBs don't last/ If for some reason Minn passes on Kalil I'd probably take him
22nd pick- I'd be looking OT here but if theres not one worth taking or we think Adams will fall to the second round. Theres a lot of DE here I might take another one or draft a linebacker. Again best player. If we draft claiborne 1st look WR here also. In this spot I would draft Richardson if he fell (but probability says it won't happen) Kendall Wright would be a great pick here if we drafted Kalil or Claiborne
2nd round- OT- Adams for sure if he falls (and we didn't draft Kalil), WR if we havent filled that spot yet, defense front 7
4th or 5th round- Posey
Other picks Defensive front 7, RB, OL
Agreed completley Swede. A more extreme example would be the 'great' QB class in 1999. Shaun King was a second rounder as a result of the run on QB's-ironically enough King had a better career than most of the guys taken ahead of him.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
You see thats how I feel about anyone that says we don't need a QB. While I'll agree Colt didn't have much help around him, he did nothing to elevate the talent of those guys either. If Colt needs superstars at every position on offense, then I'm sorry he's not a guy I want as my QB.
Here's how I see the Browns 1st three rounds:
4th: Claiborne. Gives us two shutdown corners.
22nd: We either take an OT here or a LB. If we were to take an OT hopefully Stanford's Johnathan Martin would still be on the board, because Reiff and Kalil will have been drafted. If we take a LB, get Luke Kuechly out of BC, the kid is a stud, and IS better than Ingram, Upshaw, or Hightower.
2nd: Wide receiver
3rd: Possibly a RB, I don't know where Boise's Doug Martin is ranked but he would be a good pickup here.
i'm going to mark this thread..If we do decent in the draft and give mccoy some actual weapons to work with or in free agency...he will prove some people wrong
"Winter is coming" - Urban Meyer
@Swede we need to give Colt a shot at least for a year when he has a solid offensive line and a #1 reciever to throw to. He did elevate the team last year. He did a good job scrambling to make plays when he was being rushed. A good chunk of the time he'd put the ball right on the mark or in a catchable spot on third down and what would our WR do...drop kills the momentum of a QB.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is draft this year with Colt as your starting QB
If you put 2 more stud WR around colt (with Little and our stud TEs) like Blackmon-Posey, Blackmon-Wright, Wright- Posey, Floyd-Posey...ect and a solid RT that doesn't get beat every play and he still looks like he did last year I'm all on board with you to draft a new QB until then give him a shot
OT is a funny spot this year. In some years, Kalil might be the top pick in the draft. At 3, he's going to be a steal to Minnesota (who does need CB help as well so Claiborne might be an option). Reiff is your next best tackle available and as weird as it sounds, I think he's a reach at 4. There is a bit of a drop off. I like the idea of Hayden and Claiborne but the Browns have too many needs elsewhere to load up on one position. You're also handcuffing yourself in the future. If both CB's pan out and play like top 5 picks, that is a TON of salary to devote to one position-especially one that generally demands the most money on their side of the ball.
As for Kuechly- He's a solid MLB option but I'd go for an edge rusher before I took a middle linebacker. Plus, Cleveland doesn't have a glaring need for MLB do they? I always thought of Jackson as a pretty good player. Might not be able to dominate a football game but there are only two MLB's in the league that can do that and Keuchly isn't either of them. Grant it, I believe teams should take the most talented player available before they take their biggest need (excluding QB) so if he's around and you feel he's the best guy available, having too many good LB's isn't a bad thing. I just know you can find solid middle linebackers later in the draft, you might not be able to find great edge rushers later in the draft. Barring once in a lifetime MLB talent (Lewis, Urlacher, Willis) I just don't like first round MLB's.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
D'Qwell Jackson is definitely a good player. The thing with Kuechly is that he's a versatile player, he played WILL and MIKE in college and a lot of scouts believe he has the ability to even play SAM. He's a tackling machine that would instantly help out with the Browns' lack of depth and talent at the LB position. I would be elated if the Vikings took Claiborne instead of Kalil, allowing them to snatch him up, but that isn't going to happen.
Rams? I'm missing something here. Did you mean Minnesota? If Kalil falls to STL, the Browns screwed the pooch.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Not sure what games you were watching last year, but outside of the drops you mentioned, I didn't see much in the way of Colt elevating the team or scrambling and making plays. I'll admit the drops didn't help him, but I never felt there was a game we could have won if it weren't for the drops. And you're only proving my point when you say "just put 2 more stud WR around Colt". The fact is that a stud WR needs a stud QB more than a stud QB needs a stud WR.
As somebody posted earlier, I feel this way towards the people who say we should keep McCoy. This is more of a personal attack than I would prefer, but I'll go with it simply because it's out there. I watched I think 14 of the 16 Browns games this year, so it's clearly not that one. I have been told that I'm not a true Browns fan, but I don't really see how that's relevant to this argument. As far as a lack of pure football knowledge, I take offense to that because I think it is completely unfounded. Is this really the hill you want to die on?
I'd love to just break down football knowledge as if it was something that was uniform and could be quantified- but it can't. What one person thinks is essential for a football player is completely irrelevant to the next. You point out his record at Texas, his lack of weapons, his lack of protection, and tell me (or those in my position) that I don't know football. I, on the other hand, point to his lack of confidence, lack of ability to make all the throws, lack of accuracy even in the short game, his lack of pocket awareness, his constant improper footwork, his inability to score touchdowns, and his NFL record and counter with the idea that you don't know football. In the end, where will we end up? Just spinning our tires and ticking each other off.
This argument will go no where, so clearly it will have to come down to what happens on the field. I am of the section that feels Colt McCoy is not a starting NFL quarterback or, at the least, not capable of leading a team to a super bowl. He is the type that needs everything around him to be perfect in order to succeed. He needs a good running game, great line, good receivers, and a top 5 defense. The Browns will not be anywhere near that until at least 2014 season. I want a quarterback that can be elite, can improve those around him, and change a game by himself. Colt McCoy, my friend, is not the answer.
EDIT: Competely agree with Swede's post above this. Colt did not scramble effectively last year and was tentative to step up in the pocket, tuck the ball, and run. He did east-west scrambling. Also, Colt was not on the mark with his throws, whether it was a short pass or a deep ball. He was consistently missing behind, in front, high, and low.
For the first time, I am starting to question some of the moves by H&H. How can the offense line develop any cohesion when you get rid of 2 starters, Steinbach, who is a pro bowler and Pashos who started 12 games and did a ok job. Then they let a very good Hillis just walk out the door. Looks like Colt be running for his life again. I know it's early to be jumping to conclusions, but it takes more than one summer camp to the get the offensive to mesh.
Of all the boneheaded moves they have made so far, I wouldn't kill them for these two. Both these guys are getting old and are coming off serious surgeries. Pashos probably won't be able to play for most if not all of this upcoming season.
So if you give McCoy more weapons (Three 'stud' WR's and stud TE's) than any other QB in the NFL has, you'll be ok with him as the starter? There isn't a team in the NFL that has as many weapons as the mythical Browns offense you just created, OTrain. Philly is about the most loaded offensive team in the league and they still struggle to score sometimes.
More over, you go and start two rookie WR's and see how your young QB likes that. People have this idea in their head that you can just march out WR's and they can go and dominate. Its the second hardest position in the league for a rookie to pick up. For every Randy Moss there are two Reggie Williams' and Rashaun Woods'. You are also falling prey to the 'easier said than done' mentality a lot of fans have about drafting. Lets say the Browns do draft Blackmon (They should) and by some stroke of pure luck, Floyd falls to them in the second and they take him-They are not immediatley better. You'll have a QB who is still learning throwing to two WR's who are only physical specimens and haven't learned how to play their position. You'll have sure fire chaos if that happens.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
I think that the moves that they have made, or not made, indicate that they are going to again focus on defense. Look for Claiborne with #4.
The fact that they were seriously considering giving up 3 #1 picks for RGIII tells me that, for some bizarre reason, they thnk that the fact no one could get open and had more drops than I can count will disappear with a new QB. Tannehill, Weeden, Manning, whoever, -- if your wide outs can't get open and actually catch the ball it doesn't matter who's winging it
At least they didn't sign Chad Henne
@LampLighter I thought I read somewhere that they resigned Patterson for 3 years - $16 milion which would say otherwise.
Don't give up... Don't ever give up.
It told me they realized you need a great QB if you want to accomplish anything more than a first round playoff loss. The days of riding a great defense and someone like Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson to the super bowl are over. The rules in the league now heavily favor teams that can throw the ball. The ceiling for teams with elite defense and a merely adequate offense is this years 49ers, and they have a better D and better QB than the Browns. The 49ers also benefited greatly from playing in the worst divison in the NFL. The Browns don't have that luxury. The best plan for success in the NFL today is to get an elite QB and then let everything else fall into place.
@SWEDE & DMC
He had pressure in his face all the time , his recievers couldn't get open much less catch the ball (with the exception of the tight ends), our RBs were hurt all season so we didn't have a running game. Please tell me what quarterback would look like a stud last year in our offense. You guys are acting like Little, Cribbs, Massaquoi, and Robiskie were wide open every play and he had all day to throw with a running threat to mix up the passing game. Again if you read my post above I am not saying he is the savior of cleveland and the next Aaron Rogers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, He could be we won't know until he actually has some offensive tools besides a tight end. All I'm saying is give the kid a RT, a healthy RB, and 2 more WR that can get open and catch the ball and give him a shot this season. Drafting a QB would be pointless unless you see Colt in action with some offensive tools. Especially the QBs after RG3 is off the board.
Edit: some more thoughts for you two lets look at a sucessful rookie QB: Andy Dalton
I'd like to see you point to where myself or anyone said that the receivers were wide open on evey play and the line gave him all day to throw. This is the NFL guys aren't going to be wide open and there is going to be a rush in your face. Colt showed no poise under pressure, did not scramble effectivley, and wasn't particularly adept at throwing receivers open. I think it is a waste of a season to not even bring in any competition for the guy. I don't see how anybody that watched this team last would have any sort of positive feeling about Colt starting next year. But I guess if you're content with 4-6 wins every year then Colt McCoy is the perfect QB.
You do also realize that the Bengals didn't beat a playoff team all year, and got thoroughly destroyed in the playoffs. They are a team that will probably regress this year with a much tougher schedule. Also Dalton's numbers weren't all that impressive. 20 TDs, under 4,000 yards, and 6.59 yards per attempt is hardly impressive. One and done is baout the ceiling for the Bengals with Dalton at QB.
@OTRAIN Exactly. I understand that Colt McCoy will probably never be Aaron Rodgers, but it's not like Ryan Tannehill will be either. Defenders of Colt realize the Browns will probably have to upgrade at QB some point, but just because they do doesn't mean they should take a QB regardless of his skills. Even if they had Peyton Manning in his prime, the Browns still probably wouldn't make the playoffs. Since there isn't any potential "Peyton Mannings" left, they should just draft offensive pieces to help out a QB. The Browns will need a RB/RT/and 1-2 WRs eventually, so why not take them this year and give Colt another year?
Drafting a weak QB in the first round (Tannehill) just because you need an upgrade but the good ones are gone is like dating an ugly girl at your high school because all the hot ones are taken. It doesn't make them anymore attractive (Ponder @12 last year doesn't make him any better than he actually is and ruined a chance to draft a playmaker for the Vikings).
With the signing of that DE from Cincy, the resigning of Patterson at CB, plus the extensions of Jackson/Gocong means the only spot on defensive position I can see them drafting is another OLB. This makes it seem more than likely that they will focus on offense during this draft.
Don't give up... Don't ever give up.
I know you just said he's not Aaron Rodgers, which is good that you realize that, but just so you can see the effect of not having people around you I want you to look at this.\
Packers 2010
In 2010 the Packers lost (injured reserve) their starting tight end, starting running back, and several offensive linemen. They lost a lot of defensive playmakers as well, but that's not really relevant to this particular argument. That is only injured reserve- they also sustained injuries to wide receivers and running backs, but not severe enough for IR.
Aaron Rodgers, despite all of those injuries, passed at 65% completion for 3,922 yards, 28 TDs, 11 INTs, a 101.2 QBR, and was sacked 31 teams. He was constantly under pressure.
Colt McCoy, last season with all the troubles you mentioned, threw at 57% completion (ouch), 2733 yards, 14 TDs, 11 INTs, a QBR of 74.6, and was sacked 32 times. Even in his "good" year, McCoy's QBR was only 74.4. Why do people follow him with such blind faith!?!
Aaron Rodgers, a real man's quarterback but yet to burst on to the scene, elevated his game, made the rookies and backups around him better (see Starks, Jordy Nelson) and brought his team a Super Bowl trophy.
We aren't going to get Aaron Rodgers, but I'm so sick of hearing "What quarterback could do good with this line? With these weapons?" A good quarterback elevates the play of not just himself, but every single person on that team. Colt McCoy is not a good quarterback.
Also, no one is saying we draft a guy like Tannehill or we need to draft a QB in the first round this year.
I understand what you are saying, but if you read all of my post you will see my defense.
There isn't a substantial upgrade available, so why would they waste a bunch of money or a draft pick on someone who they feel will need upgraded on as well? Look at the Vikings. Do you thinking drafting Ponder makes the players around him better? NO!
If there was a possibility to get someone that was a significant upgrade I would agree with you completely. Unfortunately, there isn't. The Browns must make the best of the situation and fill their offense with studs so that when they can find that franchise QB, he has some talent.
Don't give up... Don't ever give up.
DMC- thats a good example but you forget the packers are a deep team and aaron rogers is on a different level then almost all the QBs in the league. Luck could be that next guy but there is not guarentees
Swede- I never quoted any of u on that i said that your acting like our receivers were wide open because your ready to completely unload faith in colt and throw another rookie in there to fail again. Receivers will hardly be able to get wide open, they should be able to get some seperation or find holes in the zone which ours did not do. Pashos pretty much olayed his defensive end every play so there was 0 time for him to even look down field as he was running for his life.
I agree a QB should elevate the play of his team. You forget Rogers has 3 years to sit behind Brett Farve (arguably one of the best QBs to ever play) and learn the system. Green bay also as we've seen has probably one of the best NFL offensive systems in the league as Flynn steps in for a game and tears it up. Colt was thrown right in his rookie year.
Now the draft this year yes I would have taken Luck because players of his calibor don't come around that often. Idk if I would have traded 3 1st round picks and a 2nd for RG3. Yes he's a freak athlete. But so was Vince Young. IMO he could have been the next mike vick/ cam newton or a bust so it would have been a huge risk for us to give up all those picks as we all know we have way more needs right now WR, RT, LB, RB
Blackmon at 4 / Mike Adams at 22 / Minnifield at 37 plugs in 3 starters for the next few years. And sign Ben Tate already!
Richardson is not worth the 4 - the only people he actually trucked at Alabama were DB's. Blackmon ran a 4.45, that's plenty fast. Wright ran a 4.65, pushing him out of round 1.
Janoris Jenkins would be a great pick at 22 if the Bengals didn't take him already. In that case, I hope we'd grab some other RT at 37.
RG3 is a once-in-a-decade prospect.. but here's the thing that people forget when they slam Heckert: He offered what Snead asked! Heckert offered 3 #1's and never received a counteroffer from STL. Snead just chose the Washington offer.
It would be nice to have Frank's son at the corner - does Hanford have a kid that plays corner?
And like someone said, I'm not wed to Colt as the longterm solution at QB. I still think that they need to address the line and get some people who can catch and run before they worry about the guy under center.
Nothing against RGIII, I hope he does great personally ... but for the way this deal went down I hope he's a bust for the 'Skins. I remember a trade like this once, didn't Ditka try this in New Orleans?
JT
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