Feel free to remove the topic if it's too OT...I've got Spring fever.
With the early success and potential on the recruiting trail for both schools, some great years of The Game are upon us. Will it be Urban's quick strike offense making Mattison's defense look slow or Hoke's big uglies wearing down the OSU d-line studs paving way for semi-trucks? Either way, we are set up for some great battles, undoubtedly. Most people have alluded to the fact that we're inching toward a Big 2, little 10, but I haven't heard much about the post season scenario.
How long does it take before we see The Game...two weeks in a row? The regular meeting and then in Indy (for now, anyway) for the B1G Championship Game. In 2013, 2015...Never, Almost always? What effect will it have on the national picture if there is a plus one? For instance, let's say both go 11-0 and OSU wins in November and then Michigan wins the B1GCG. Now both schools are 11-1 with both losses at the end of the season. Could either sustain the loss if there were four other 1-loss teams out there? Could both?
Just an interesting discussion I had with a Buckeye over lunch and got me thinking. Cheers.
Hail: good questions, from a reasonably balanced perspective.
Still, I cannot resist speculating on why your "spring [football] fever" arrived two weeks earlier than ours. Don't worry, Beilein is working on a cure for your premature spring fever as we speak . . .
When Ohio State and UM get these next 2 or 3 recruiting classes in and dominate the rest of the B1G, the people in charge will have to realize how badly they screwed up the divisions.
Ohio State and Michigan should play once a year, end of the regular season, with a birth in the CCG on the line. I say they should have divided the conference geographically.
Penn St. Ohio State. Michigan. Michigan St. Purdue. Indiana. on the east.
Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Northwestern, Illinois, Minnesota on the west.
Then, if we had expanded to pick up Syracuse or Pitt and Notre Dame - fill them in accordingly.
If indeed we are moving toward a Big 2 Little 10 conference we are in trouble! If the other 10 schools in the B1G don't step up their game, OSU and TSUN will be looked at as beneficiaries of the weak conference. I would say that given the scenario, both teams would struggle to make it to a play-in game or national championship game. I would give OSU a slight edge because of Urban. He has had other national championships and other really good teams, even before Florida, the voters would most likely take that into consideration. This isn't a jab at Hoke, but what has he really done to show that he is an elite coach? While I don't think the past should play into the vote, I would assume the voters might think about that...similar to how they always give the SEC the benefit of the doubt because they have been good in recent history.
Big 2 Little 10 is a scary thought, you can only hope that kids begin to want to go to Minnesota and other 2nd tier B1G schools to prove they can play against the best.
"Michigan and "huge mistake" are synonymous"
-Mark Titus
Good questions, and I'm sure we will see "The Game" x2 more than a few times. And yeah, I could see one (or both) schools losing out on NC opportunities because of it.
However, as far as "Big 2 Little 10" goes, I wouldn't be so quick to write off Penn State, Nebraska, Wisconsin, and to a lesser extent, Michigan St and Iowa. PSU and Nebraska each have a rich football tradition and they will always field competitive teams. Wisconsin has come on in the last few seasons and is a solid program as well. I'd say it could be more like "Big 2, somewhat-less-big 3, medium 2, little 5." Ha ha
@Run_Fido_Run
I support Michigan basketball. I watch every game. I go to games every year. But my heart is with football. BBall losses and being bumped from the tourney stings, but I don't lose sleep over it. A football loss puts me in a crabby mood for at least a week...and it always seems like we lose before a bye week which sucks that much more..
@JasonR
My personal view is on par with yours about the conference. I just meant that I've seen lots of discussion where people were saying that's where the B1G is heading. I say UofM and OSU in tier 1, MSU, Nebraska, PSU, and Wisconsin Tier 2, Iowa, Illinois, Purdue and NW in Tier 3, and Minny and Indiana in Tier 4...with slight fluctuation in Tiers 2 and 3 in a given year.
@Donkey
ESPN decides NC matchup, ESPN hates OSU, ESPN in bed with SEC, SEC hates Urban = no love for Urban = no advantage
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
Didn't want to start a new thread for this, so if someone else deems it worthy...by all means. Was actually posted on MGOBLOG.
http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2012/03/27/columbus-ohio-state-super-fan-hospitalized-when-turkey-vulture-smashes-through-car-windshield.html
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
@ Hail I won't be surprised if OSU and UM are elite in the B1G. Either one or both will ranked in the top 3 for many years to come. There will be some years that one or the other will get bounced by PSU, Neb., Wisky, or MSU, but I think it will come down to the "greatest rivalry in sports". By the way, nice thread.
The writing is on the wall. There is a desire by the B1G to move The Game from the last regular season game. It started when the two were put in separate divisions. I am sure that Delany's thinking was somewhat along the lines of "these two schools will realize that they really don't want to play each other on consecutive weekends". The game will be moved to October when it will be a prime time match up at 8 pm. UM already tested the waters of the late game in Michigan stadium, and OSU has been bowing to the TV gods for those late night throw downs. Does anyone really think that the purest among us will weather this storm? I despise the idea of being in separate divisions and/or moving the game, but we are in separate divisions and the move will happen. The B1G is doing everything possible to make it the B1G, not the Big 2 and The Little XX (insert any number to fill out the league). Heck, Brandon has even spoken out on the topic of moving the game and most probably would not object to it. Even Smith has not taken a steadfast stand on this issue. Couple that with the projected NC playoff system, and most teams will be jockeying for smoother sailing come the end of November so they can be at full strength for the playoffs. Heck, what head coach really wants to play 2 big games back to back, like The Game and then the B1G championship. It is a formula for disaster in reaching the NC. It can be done, but it makes the road much tougher and the risk for an injury to key player(s) is considerably higher.
@NW Buckeye I know you are right about this matchup being played in mid-season and it only makes sense as you pointed out. I hate spoiling tradition, but the money factor determines what we do.
@Hail
I'm not trying to say that OSU will make the National Championship game over an SEC team, my only point about Urban is that his track record will help the Buckeyes in that situation. While the SEC might hate Urban, I think the rest of the B1G will quickly learn to dislike him too. ESPN is going after the money, just like the B1G, that is why they promote the SEC so much (TV rights). However, if there is a story line outside of an SEC team that they could profit from, it might very well be Urban playing against the SEC in a National Championship Game. Just a thought... but IMO he helps OSU's chances of making it to the National Championship Game.
This is a good thread, makes you think.
"Michigan and "huge mistake" are synonymous"
-Mark Titus
@Donkey - Interesting comments. It is often said "follow the money"! And, given that it has been proven that the four letter network promotes their best interests there could be more merit in what you say than what you intended. I am sure there are discussions within the network as to what matchups will bring in the best audience and the most $$ to their coffers. Do any of us really trust them to remain just a venue for broadcasting the matchups that occur, or could there be some form of jockeying going on to insure the best matchups? Much has been made of past point fixing/shaving scandals that involve mere peanuts compared to the $$ that the four letter enjoys from the best match ups. Who is to say that there is no maneuvering going on to increase the probability of the best match ups in the future? I don't trust the four letter at all, and stranger things have happened. Just who is policing their actions? (God, this sounds like some paranoid crap!)
Iowa fields a great team 1 out of every 6ish yrs. Mich St. is about to be hurting without Jimmy T helpin Dantonio. Mich is really makein noise recruiting... I look for PSU to bounce back in a few yrs and I hope Wisconsin doesnt win a game. Also I think Purdue and Northwestern are a bit better than the others that usually dont make noise.
mark may wins douchebag of the year... again
Threadjack!
@hail, so what I want to know is why someone born and raised in the Dayton area would become such a diehard Wolverine. So much so that you root against the Buckeyes any time they play.
Then I'd like to know why you feel the compulsion to hang out on a Buckeye blog.
Have many more questions about you specifically. Not about Hoke and the Wolverines though. That file is already closed in my mind. The rivalry is dead. We own it.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
@NC_Buckeye
Ask away, just don't make it creepy. And if you think the rivalry is dead, I'm truly disappointed. This rivalry, luckily, will last until I die and, hopefully, until my kids and grandkids go (which should be a while since my oldlest kid just turned 2). It survived cooper dropping 10 out of 13, so I'm sure it will survive Tressel winning 9 of 10.
I've liked Michigan forever, initially because of family influence, as my entire family is from Michigan. My family is split between MSU and UofM. I guess you could say I enjoy the confrontation aspect of it, and I just loved winning and rubbing all of my friends' noses in it all but 3 years of school. Why I root against OSU? Because that's what I know, just like most of you. My hope of the B1G earning a better national perspective does not trump my hatred for the Buckeyes. I really can't stand bandwagon fans or fans that root for a bunch of schools. I love Michigan and the Cubs and root for the Dolphins.
I came to this board originally after a coworker showed me it. First, to read about OSU recruiting. It's a really nice board. I get to see the perspective of the dark side and offer up my perspective from a Michigan standpoint (and I hold my tongue a lot because I'm not here to flame and troll--a lot, but not always). Meanwhile, I've realized that most everyone here is good people (can't say the same about Bucknuts and others). As to why...I've grown up amongst Buckeye fans my whole life. It's what I'm used to. I guess it's like they say, "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer." Who knows, maybe I'll see one of you at a game some day.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
@NC_BUCKEYE
Whats with all the hostility? Someone could ask you why you are a Buckeye fan if you live in NC, right? As far as the rivalry being dead, that is a new perspective! I don't really know how you can claim we own it after we lost the last game. Before last year we had won 9 of 10 I believe, but prior to that they won 10 of 13. The series momentum keeps going back and forth, that seems like a good rivalry to me.
In general it seems like there is a lot more hostility in the last week on these boards. Not sure if we now have the more casual fan who runs his mouth paying attention since spring practice has started or what, but I don't like it. Its especially bad when it is the Buckeye fans showing the bad attitude, go to another site if you want to talk smack. Please don't let this turn into another BuckNuts forum.
"Michigan and "huge mistake" are synonymous"
-Mark Titus
I don't see how the rivalry is dead. The first 13 years of the game pretty much belonged to scUM, but, since then, I believe the series has been pretty even overall. Sure, recently, we had Tressel's domination over scUM, but, just before that, we had to endure the Cooper years. The rivalry is alive and well, and it seems clear that both coaches understand that.
Why does Hail have to be a Buckeye fan because he's from Dayton? That doesn't make any sense to me.
@Hail I have been a Buckeye fan for many years and my children are as well. My daughter would go to the games with me at the shoe. Then she graduated from college and moved to the Dayton area. There she met a guy and they got married. Of all things, he was a UM fan. So now they have a house divided, but really we just rib each other. If you take a look at my avatar, you will see our family portrait and everyone is decked out in scarlet and gray. My son-in-law is the one in the Tressel vest. Just have fun everyone and respect the rivalry. There is no need for mean hatred.
The rivalry is most definitely not dead. Every once in a while one team dominates for a few years and then some young fans think it is no longer a rivalry. Heck, there were many UM fans claiming such rubbish at the end of the 90's. The reasoning was that a true rival actually wins more than just once in 10 years. And, Cooper did everything he could to reduce The Game to just another game on the schedule (that worked well for him!!). We even had to listen to some naive UM fans proclaim that MSU and ND were more their true rivals because they offered more competition. Even recently we had to listen to some similar logic because of tOSU's dominance in the last 10 years.
Well, any true fan of either school knows that the rivalry is alive and well, and always has been. And, Hoke's, Brandon's and Beilien's arrogant ways only prove my point. They make it easy to hate UM more than any other school. That is saying something after Bret Belemia has been spouting off so much since he took the Badger helm.
For what it is worth, I like having Hail posting here. He has come close to crossing the "ruffle my feathers too much" line, but for the most part he brings a civil different perspective, and he, at least, gets the rivalry. For any fan on either to proclaim the rivalry dead or over is just naive or an attempt to get under the skin of opposing fans. I really didn't like it when UM fans have spouted such crap in the past, and I don't like it when any Buckeye does it now. What I do like is for the Buckeyes to play well and do our talking for us.
The past 10 years have been glorious for us. Would love to see Urban and Co. continue the trend, but it seems as if Hoke does understand the rivalry and he is bringing in talent to try to turn the tide. My only fear for the rivalry is that the B1G will eventually move the game to mid season. And, if we have young naive fans spouting that the rivalry is over maybe some fools will begin to believe it.
Every time a Michigan fan posts anything reasonable, the thread can never stay cordial...smh.
As far as how I see the rivalry playing out, I think we'll know a lot more in the next few years. At the moment, each coach is working with their aforementioned regime's players. But damn am I excited for this! This could prove to be the opposite of the RichRod/Tressel era, if only for the style of play. Should be fun to see these two great teams on an equal--if diametrically opposed--ground. Meyer has the better track record, but I know better than to count on that.
That being said, I believe that we'll see OSU-UM rematches probably 40-50% of the time in the title game. Wisconsin and Michigan State will be our chief obstacles, and don't discount a resurgent Illinois under Beckman, he could prove to be trouble in the future. Throw in Iowa as wel for you guys, they always seem to make a run once every five years. As much as I hate that pompous oaf Bielma, I have to admit that he does well with what little he gets, my money says that it's not a long-term model for success. Likewise, MSU will prove to be your main contender in the Legends division, but I think that Dantonio has taken them as high as they're going to go--he'll be moving up soon, anyways.
I'm just going to say this much, Meyer is going to match Tressel's success against Michigan in his time here in Columbus. He understands what the rivalry means and quite honestly he's the best big game coach of the last 20 years. The only big game that I can remember him losing came to Bama, in a year that Bama won the national title.
He dominates big games and rivalry games, I don't anticipate that changing. Also, I understand that Michigan has some good players being recruited, but I think people forget Tressel only beat 3 bad Michigan teams. He beat teams rated higher than Ohio State and one that was undefeated and ranked number 2. I think people forget about the teams before the DickRod days and say well we have these monster recruiting classes coming in etc etc etc. That didn't matter before, and quite honestly I'm not sure It's going to matter during the Meyer years either.
Agree completely Mr. BTalbert. Very well done.
The Rivalry's not dead but it's in danger. It all started with Delaney putting tOSU/UM in separate divisions. If what happens, and it appears it might be the case, that tOSU/UM once again make the B1G the B1G 2/Little 8, and having to play UM twice a year, it will water down the Rivalry. And, if they move the GAME to the middle of the season you can kiss the Rivalry goodbye. That's what appears to be happening. The GAME is only meant to be played once a year, like always, at high noon, with the winner getting to salivate, maintain bragging rights and basking in victory for an entire year. If the aforenamed events happen, we may be looking at Wisconsin or Penn St. as our new UM.
Doesn't matter when we play--the game will always be The Game. Now, it will be a crime if they move it, but as long as we both maintain our excellence and continue to play one another, the rivalry will never die.
OSU and UM had to be in separate divisions, even if the notion of a rematch was perverse. We're the only two consistant heavyweights (it could be argued that Penn State is, as well--but not on the level of OSU/UM), to put us both in the same division would have crippled us from the get go. Imagine a 12-0 OSU playing an 8-4 Iowa, year in, year out, while an 11-1 UM sat by the wayside? Not to mention the potential cash cow that Delaney would have been slaughtering, when the inevitable occurs and OSU and UM square off in the Big Ten Championship. Look what happened when MSU-UW played, they couldn't even fill Lucas Oil Stadium!
Thanks for the input and, from most of you, respect. I didn't use to respect the rivalry and OSU, but I guess I'm growing up. It is fantastic that we have two head coaches that truly get IT! I don't see either team winning more than 2 (maybe three) in a row, going forward. Honestly, I think we're head on with another 10-year War.
To BTAlbert's opinion, you may be right. A year ago if 99.9% of Michigan fans were given the choice of Hoke and Meyer, they'd pick Meyer. Now, I'd say 50/50 and that's only taking into account the "fans" that are content finding the score on the ticker each week. Most Michigan fans are fully onboard with Hoke-mania. The 04-07 teams (Braylon, Henne, Hart, Long, Manningham, Breaston, Leon Hall, etc, etc.) were probably some of the best to take the field against OSU and couldn't win once. And I won't make excuses, but most of those games could've gone either way and just bounced the Buckeye's way. Maybe Tressel wanted it more than Lloyd--seemed like it, sometimes. But it's not like the best team always wins The Game. Cooper knows that.
All I know is that the 364 days between meetings can be carefree and boastful or cloudy and longing...especially living in enemy territory (I'm sure UpNorthBuckeye and others feel me). My seatbelt is buckled and I'm ready for the last week in November.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
I agree it would be a shame for the rivalry to be moved up in the year. But if they do, I think they have to look into making it a prime time game, as someone above mentioned.
Other big time rivalries do fine in the middle of the season (Texas/OK, ND/USC, Florida/Georgia, Stanford/Cal, etc.). I'm sure that THE rivalry would make it as well.
Wisconsin, Penn State, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Nebraska...none of them will replace OSU or Michigan as our biggest rivals. But there's no doubt that we each have more than one rival.
I mean, if we see Michigan vs OSU playing each other in water polo or chess or tiddly winks, the football rivalry trickles down and we, at least for a second, nod in approval or throw out a "dang it" when we see the score. It's ingrained in us, so tell me how it could ever die.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
Dead? Someone called this rivalry dead? Come on dudes. This rivalry does this. Its the history of it. We hung our heads in shame in the 90's while Michigan's noses were sky high. They hid in fear of OSU in the 00's and we were as arrogant as they came. This is a new period for the rivalry because its the first time I can remember where two coaches were so close to each other in their tenure at their respective schools. This has the makings of a long term rivalry where each coaches' legacy will be largely defined by his success against the other. Now that's generally the case with this rivalry but for the first time since Woody and Bo, we might have two coaches who really signify the rivalry. Think about it-Lloyd had no rival. Neither did Tressel. It wasn't Lloyd vs. Coop-It was Michigan over OSU. It wasn't JT vs. Lloyd-it was OSU over M.
This has the makings of a years long struggle of Urban vs. Brady. It is going to be a hell of a lot of fun for both sides.
What I will say about Meyer....look at his track record against Miami and against FSU. He was content smashing those teams in his tenure in Gainseville. He got it then, he gets it now. Given the chance, he's going to run up the score on Michigan and if he does, lets enjoy it-but if\when Hoke has the chance to do the same, lets make sure we don't get our briefs in a twist.
Its gonna be fun dudes and dudettes....just try to enjoy it!
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
@Hail - I agree with you that the rivalry will always live on in our hearts. I am more concerned with the hearts of the next generation. As you stated, you did not fully appreciate the rivalry until you "grew" up. And you grew up while the game has always been The Game played at high noon (almost all the time) for the last game of the season. But, there will be a lot of factors coming into play for the future. The B1G was smart enough to guarantee each school one cross over rival for every year. But, what happens when/if the B1G expands to 16 teams (everyone is predicting that). That means 7 games per year with teams in your own division, 1 guaranteed cross over rivalry, and 2(?) other cross overs? That soaks up 10 games of the regular season. Add to that the cross over agreement between the PacXX and B1G and it leaves only one other OC game. I know we have all been clamoring for better OC opponents, but having only one open spot will create a real fiasco. So, the worry is always there that the B1G will give up on the guaranteed rival cross overs.
Add to that the calls for moving to a real playoff system may threaten to shorten the season. Mike Leach said he would love to see a 64 game playoff and cut the regular season to 10 games to make room for it. As ludicrous as that seems, once the playoff steamroller gets moving expansion of the playoffs is just around the corner. Case in point is the basketball tourney. We are at 68 teams right now, and the move is underway to take it to 128. Yet, the only teams that really have a chance are the top 20? And, here we have the likes of Mike Leach clamoring for a big playoff. Can you imagine having a 10 game regular season? The only games you could fit in are league games. Can you imagine UM only having 5 regular season home games? On the surface these all seem like preposterous ideas, but 30 years ago a 68 team basketball tourney seemed to be as asinine as any of this.
It will take a lot of people like you and me to keep the rivalry alive through all the future changes in college football.
You guys give Michigan and Hoke way too much credit. Meyer and company are going to plow thru those AA pansies for the next ten years. And I'll enjoy each one of those pummelings.
BTW, if you were born and raised in Ohio then you are a Buckeye. I left Ohio when I was 33 but you can ask anyone I know down here... I'm still a Buckeye. BTW, since leaving I've met many ex-pat Ohioans who aren't alumni and are from all over the state -- AND THEY ARE ALL BUCKEYES.
Last if you think I'm being hostile to @hail -- you're right. He did some commenting after the game that qualifies as smack talk in my book. I've got a long memory.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
And one last thing, if the call went out that militias were forming in Ohio and Michigan in order to finish the Toledo War. I'd be in a car tomorrow looking for an Ohio enlistment center.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
My first comment wasn't until late February. So if I made a comment following the game in November, this is news to me.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
@NC BECKEYE
You don't have to justify your love for the Buckeyes for me, I appreciate fellow Buckeye fans regardless of how/why they became Buckeye fans. I was only referring to your questions to Hail and how similar questions could be asked of you.
A long memory is only useful if it is accurate!
"Michigan and "huge mistake" are synonymous"
-Mark Titus
Why are Buckeye fans bashing other Buckeye fans for asking a tsun fan questions?
NO, he didnt ask what you would ask or ask it the way you would ask it but he didnt swear or break any site rules and he is here to suport the Buckeyes but hail and the other tsun fans have made it clear they are not here to support the Buckeyes in anyway.
I know hail has been a good boy at times and he has the right to be on this site but he and the other tsuns fans have made negative comments about the Buckeyes and there will be more.
There is hate between Buckeye fans & tsun fans and it is a big part of the rivalry, if you take away the hate you will have just another rivalry (IMO) I have enjoyed this rivalry for over 40 years and a few kids with a different opinion wont change how i feel about the rivalry.
You can have your opinion and like who and what you like, just dont expect others to think like you do..
GO BUCKS
O H I O is the Buckeye State
If we move The Game, we might as well sell our tradition. We aren't Wisconsin-Minnesota. I can't believe they would ever consider this. It's bad enough they put us in opposite divisions. Imagine going undefeated, beating Michigan, then losing your title shot because you had to play them the next week in Indianapolis. It doesn't make sense to me. Why mess with tradition? For money, really. That will be our legacy, and what we tell our grandkids. "they moved the game to generate more revenue" Sounds shallow to me. There should always be leaves falling, a brisk breeze, and overcast skies when we battle Michigan.
Dustin Fox was our leading tackler as a corner.... because his guy always caught the ball.
- Seeing my mom naked
- Scheduling an extra colonoscopy just for fun
- moving in with my in-laws
... all things I'd rather do than sit around and ponder the future in relation to Michigan.
Not getting on anyones case for doing so, I just don't give a damn for the whole state of Michigan. Go Bucks!
@NC_Buckeye
"And one last thing, if the call went out that militias were forming in Ohio and Michigan in order to finish the Toledo War. I'd be in a car tomorrow looking for an Ohio enlistment center."
I lived in Toledo for a few years, you can keep it. Seriously. And yes I still live in Ohio so don't think I'm just bashing the state. Toledo is a dumpster fire. The armpit of Ohio. Ohio won the war but really lost on that one.