There's been a lot of debate recently about the offense, and for good reason. With the offense continuing to atrophy, players not being utilized correctly, and playcalling beyond predictable, the need for some kind of change or refinement is clear.
So what kind of offense would you call? Can you really see OSU running a no-huddle spread? Is the current "multiple" offensive style (for all of you who play NCAA video games) best suited to our personnel? Should Braxton be given the keys to a spread option machine like Urban might like? Or do you prefer a straight-up pro style?
This is a question that I PRAY will be a topic of discussion in the coming weeks as we get a new Offensive Coordinator. So, what kind of offense woud you build?
The "multiple" offense we run is the biggest piece of garbage ever. Its like our offense can't decide what it wants to be. The best offense I can think of in the past decade was the one Meyer and Mullen ran at UF. That spread offense was a thing of beauty. Great run plays (zone-reads,traps, misdirections,sweeps), well executed screens and slants. I think it would be better suited to Miller's talents, moreso than any other offense we could run. Excellent description here http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2008/12/florida-gatorurban-meyer-offense.html
Pro style, with variations of zone read, some true option. We have too many bigger backs to run an offense like Meyer had at Florida...at least early on.
@Johnnycake Right now our personnel wouldn't fit that offense perfectly at running back. Herron wouldn't fit, but Berry and Hall certainly would, and Hyde has the speed to fit in it as well. Also incoming recruit Warren Ball would fit, even though he is a big back, he is an excellent receiving back. Dunn on the other hand wouldn't fit well. A guy like Akise Teague would fit great, but he was never offered by OSU, which was a travesty I thought, he's at Cincy now. We have the right Tight ends in Stoneburner and Fragel for that offense, and Boren is a very athletic full back as well. It also would best fit Miller's talents too.
The running backs we have will work in a spread offense because they're good players. You don't need a bunch of 5'10'' track stars at running back to run a good spread offense. Legarrette Blount and Jonathan Stewart were both awesome in Oregon's offense, and they're both big power type backs.
I want Ohio State to run an offense that is relatively balanced and can score points. The zone-read spread is both of those and it's the offense that the best coach on the market runs.
Ohio State 2010 finished 20th in total offense. Run that offense.
vacuuming sucks
Maestro a lot of 2010s offense was based on and around Terrelle Pryor. He's not the QB anymore, I don't think we should ever have another offense depend so much on one player at a time. Look where that has gotten us this year. The spread would be ideal for us. It suits Miller's skill set the best, and we have the right personnel to run it. We don't have Andrew Luck at QB so we can't run the Pro-style. We also aren't Georgia Tech or one of the service academies, so we should avoid the Option.
SPREAD IS TRASH. /thread
It doesn't work against physical defenses like Wisky, OSU, MSU, etc. We saw that with DickRod's Michigan. They had the personnel, talent, etc. It just won't fly in the B1G.
What should we do? Power I, throw in some normal shotgun/pistol for change up. IMHO.
More important than that, use the personnel we have in the best manner possible. We have big backs and a mobile QB. That means lots of I and Zone Reads. Cool, do that. That's why I despise "system" coaches (DickRod, Meyer, etc.). They can't use what they have.
The Ohio State University, College of Arts & Sciences, Class of 2006
The Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, Class of 2009
BED is the man.
William, show me a good offense that isn't based on a good QB. See Florida this season. Brantley at QB = 450 yards per game. Freshmen at QB = 200 yards per game...........and calling Brantley good is generous some would say.
The spread depends way more on one player than the 2010 OSU offense did. See Michigan 2010 or 2007-09 Florida or 2009 Texas. Offenses that depend too much on the QB don't have 1st Team All Big Ten RB's.
vacuuming sucks
@ bed, yea, that's why Meyer won a national title in his second year at Florida using all of Zook's recruits...he couldn't use what he had.
Maestro I can understand what you're saying. I just feel like our offense over the past three years depended way too much on Terrelle Pryor. @BED the spread doesn't work against physical defenses. Yeah that's why Florida beat us 41-14, or the fact that they won 2 national titles in 3 years. Pretty sure Auburn beat Alabama running the Spread last year, or when Florida beat LSU on more than one occasion. What do you think TCU ran with Dalton last year when they beat Wisky, a spread variation. What do you mean the spread won't work in the B1G, the spread has handed the B1G its ass more often than not come bowl season. The teams that run the spread in the B1G don't have good defenses. When you combine a good spread offense with a good defense you get Urban Meyer's teams at Florida or last year's Auburn team.
You hit it right on the head William.
Spread offenses, work..why else would most of the teams in the country run them?
You obviously have to be able to run the ball effectively and play steller defense to compete at a national level.
It also helps to have a big physical QB that can run from the spread when no one is open I.e. Vince Young, Tim Tebow, Cam Newton etc.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
But anybody interested in some triple option ala Paul Johnson?!
Meyer would've won that first title without Tebow. Chris Leake was a good QB, Tebow was a factor that year, but he wasn't the focal point of that offense. He contributed sure, but he wasn't the reason they were able to win that year.
Didn't Dickrod's 3 win team almost beat Utah who was physical enough to embarrass Alabama in a BCS bowl on national TV? That same 3 win team was able to put up enough points to beat a top 10 Wisconsin team. Michigan's problem those 3 years wasn't the offense or the type of system the ran, it was a feakin terrible defense and lack of personnel to correctly run that system. Look at the improvements they made last season. They still weren't good, but give last year's team a defense and Michigan is damn near a BCS team last year.
BuckeyeJason...Yes, and the spread is also why small lesser talented programs are able to compete. Look at Northwestern for example, they're consistently wining 3-4 more games a year than they should with the talent they have.
Kurt, wasn't directing the "can't use what they have" comment at Meyer, necessarily. Just at system coaches in general. I hate when fanbases tolerate mediocrity with what was a good program the year before (Michigan) when they bring in a new coach because his system isn't in place yet. They Meyer reference there was just to help subconciously persuade people to get off that bandwagon.
William, any offense will work when you're not covering the recievers closer than 7 yards (which is what happened in that 07 game), and the defense is on the field most of the game. Auburn can't run that spread without $Cam Newton, look at them this year. Big, athletic, physical QBs that can turn spread into zone-read are much more effective.
I'm just watching spread teams run in the B1G for more than 1 game per year. They aren't successful. That's all I meant.
BT - ALMOST beat Utah. Almost. lol.
The Ohio State University, College of Arts & Sciences, Class of 2006
The Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, Class of 2009
I like the pro style offense, and I think that it actually gives you an advantage any more. So many people are going to the spread, that hitting them with a power run game just destroys the smaller defenses. Look what Wisconsin is doing to people.
What makes a good offense is having good counters, and teaching it in a way that the players can execute.
I don't want a no-hudden only, or spread to run offense. The first is a terror on your defense, and the second has a truly difficult time playing from behind. Whatever we do, defense should be first. For all the hype that their offense got, both Florida and Auburn won those championships on defense.
@yrro...best argument I've seen on this site yet in favor of a pro-style offense. I still disagree and would prefer a spread-to-run attack.
You make a good point about Wisconsin and the affect spread offenses have had on defenses. Over the past 7 years defenses have gone to smaller and faster line backers, but yet bigger and stronger secondaries. While Wisconsin gets plenty of talk about their power and that they just pound people right up the middle I don't think that's all true. They set those off-tackle runs with a lot of mis-direction and counters. In my opinion what makes them really hard to beat this year is that they really have a mobile qb who is a threat on all those naked bootlegs they run.
Anyway, if we went pro-style offense, I'd want Chryst to be our OC or Boise's current OC or the guy Harsin (?) who just went to Texas. I think it's harder to win with a pro-style offense in college unless the guy running the O is a real genius like those guys.
Bed I disagree, give Auburn another year and they'll be dominating with the spread again. They have Kiehl Frazier, frosh QB from Arkansas who will dominate in the spread, plus Gus Malzahn is an offensive genius. For those bagging on Meyer, his offense suffered so badly because of Brantley, who is highly overrated. Weis is an excellent offensive coordinator. Give Jeff Driskel another year to pick up Weis's offense which has been a combination of the spread and pro-style and Florida will be dominating again. This is why I want Urban Meyer, the man has dominated different conferences, with different players because of his spread system and how it is such an effective machine. Its worked everywhere he has been, Bowling Green, Utah, Florida, and hopefully next year at OSU.
William: +100
Also while I do want Urban Meyer, I want us to keep most of the defensive staff. Keep Haynes for our secondary has always never been worse than good and quite often great. Keep Heacock as D-line coach and Co-DC because he is one of the best in the nation, keep Vrabel because of the recruiting possibilities, and because I believe our LBs will improve under him (this years LBs just don't have the same instincts in pass coverage that we have been accustomed to, not Vrabel's fault) and keep Fickell because he is also an excellent DC, and should probably be made the Recruiting coordinator because the man is an absolute beast on the recruiting trail. If Meyer comes in I imagine we will keep Drayton because the guy was a part of the reason Meyer was successful, he knows how to implement WRs and RBs into the spread.
I agree with yrro. Defense first! That's always been the method teams have succeeded. Then it doesn't matter what offense you run. Offense fills the seats, defense wins the games.
William, those are well-reasoned arguments. But I'm still not sold on Meyer. I won't be until he hangs 70 on Michigan (if he gets the job). I personally don't think he can handle the stress from a health perspective. He couldn't handle Florida, he'll get eaten alive here.
The Ohio State University, College of Arts & Sciences, Class of 2006
The Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, Class of 2009
And please keep Fick as DC if he loses the HC job! Totally agree on that front as well.
Just gotta clean house on the offensive side of the ball (sans Drayton, that hire was a coop).
The Ohio State University, College of Arts & Sciences, Class of 2006
The Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, Class of 2009
Whatever the kind of offense, I'd just like an OC who knows what "base" and "constraint" plays are. That means knowing when to use play action, throwing short routes to set up long ones (and vice versa) running to the strong side and then throwing in a counter or misdirection, or using screens against an aggresive pass rush and blitz. "Systems" to me are just personal preference - what makes an OC really effective is an understanding of constraint theory and the ability to identify defensive weaknesses.
I guess I have a problem with the word "Spread" as a catch all term. What are we talking here? MichiganUnderRR Spread Option? Purdue's 4 and 5 wide sets from the Brees and Orton days where nothing was thrown over 4 yards? Texas Tech's Spread and Shred deep passing game under Leach? Meyer's Spread Option with Tebow at the helm that was 3 parts power running game, 1 part lateral passing game? Oregon's fast paced spread option game? I hate to be the bearer of bad news here, cats, but SPREAD isn't a philosophy, its a generalization that has more than a fair share of variations to it-none of which the current OSU talent can really run.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Oklahoma's.
With Stoops as the HC? I'm way OK with that! (See what I did there?)
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
I'd run Florida's run heavy spread. It fits our talent best. We have capable running backs for it in Hall, Berry and Hyde, it also would definitely fit Miller. Also love Florida's quick outs, screens and slants, also they used Hernandez in the same capacity we should be using Stoneburner. We don't have the personnel to run Oklahoma's pass heavy spread. There is no way in Hell we could run Texas Tech's Air Raid offense, the only quarterbacks we have ever had that could run an offense like that would be Art Schlichter and Troy Smith.
Nah, you lost me there. Miller cant take the hits Tebow did, the Jordan Hall\Percy Harvin stuff just doesn't work for me anymore finally, Hernandez was 10 times the receiving TE Stoney is. I think we are playing a bad game of roung peg square hole by trying to pick an offense that was run in the past and thinking our players would fit into it. With this team we should be a run first\play action team.
TTU's offense isn't reliant on the QB. If you get a chance sometime, there is some good stuff out there about that offense Leach ran in Lubbock. It isn't so much about pre snap reads\great arm QB's as it is about finding open space and playing sort of a wide open\backyard football game. You don't need big armed guys like the two you mentioned to play that offense. Leach had GREAT success with guys with far less God given ability than #10. (can't speak on Art since he was before my time...and yours too if I'm guessing right).
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
I'd imagine you're right about TTU's air raid as I haven't done much reading on it. While Hall is nowhere near the player Harvin is, I believe we have the right pieces to have a run based spread like UF. I think Stoneburner is every bit the receiver Hernandez is, our TEs are poorly underutilized, look at Jake Ballard. Also many here constantly discuss Miller's supposed injury problems. To me he isn't really injury prone, the ankle injury against Nebraska was caused by the turf, not him being supposedly injury prone. Also Tebow had injury problems himself. Miller has point on close to 25 pounds this year alone. He can take a hit fine. As for the Schlichter comment you're absolutely right, I might be the youngest on the blog, the only video I've seen of him are highlights and games that my father taped.
I wasn't really hitting at Miller's injury issues, just the very nature of taking the hits Tebow did in that offense. Injury prone or not, Miller can't be expected to run the ball 20 some times a game and take hits that much. Look at Denard and watch his production drop after the course of a season. Wears a body down. With 25 pounds, I'd be resting a little easier each time he took off but lets let Miller use his feet to create for his arm instead of relying on him as a runner. UM is a perfect case study=your QB can be great when he runs and he can put up eye popping numbers but when he invariably gets dinged, your team (that has grown so reliant on him) goes down the crapper when he does.
So to sum up my feelings to the original question-Anything but Walrus Ball?
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
I'll agree that 20 designed runs for any QB is too much but with Miller I'd think that 10-12 runs a game is fine.
My 2 cents on the running spread is that it's true genius has yet to be realized. You can operate it with a stable of qb's. We haven't fully seen it yet, but I'm sure it's coming in the future. We're seeing now in the NFL running backs by committee, one goes down, insert another. I think with the running spread it can work in a similar way. The offense doesn't require a great great passer, which therefore broadens the spectrum of athletes that could then be the qb. Your offesnse is then less dependant on a single star qb, and more stable in having 2, 3 or even 4 guys on the sideline that could come in and take over.
Kurt I think Florida attempted that last year with John Brantley and Trey Burton.
True. But I'm thinking more in terms of like qb's. Burton and Brantley have very different abilities. I think more along the lines of Oregon passing the offense from Masoli to Thomas for example.
1 that can win!
I think Ohio State should run the Single Wing with Miller at QB, Boom/Hyde at FB, Hall/Berry at WB, Boren at BB, Philly/the ghost of DeVier Posey at OE, and Stoneburner at SE. When teams throw out of the single wing, they always find man coverage from the defense, and lots of separation. We can also confuse defenses who don't want to work hard (i.e. SEC defenses).
When perfectly executed, it looks a lot like this (mousetraps not included): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2Vw1JL5I_k
/Duff'd It
I would like to see some zone read with a high low receiving option on the side with the roll out so that there are less designed quarterback runs combined with some straight power running out of the pistol. With about 50 percent of our snaps coming from the Pistol. Maybe we think about hiring a guy like Matt Canada formerly of Indiana or Blake Anderson from Southern Miss to work with the current staff and shake up the offense a little.
Pro Style and its not even close. You can consistently win year after year with it, see USC and Alabama ... no need to worry about people "figuring it out." Power running game and a great pocket passer will always be the best offense IMO. But, you have to have superior athletes to do it. Utah, TT, West Virginia etc were better teams than their talent should have allowed due to systems. But, if you have the horses, a traditional pro style attack is the best hands-down.
Of the top 20 highest scoring teams in BCS conferences only two teams run real pro-style offenses: Stanford and Texas A&M. The former has a slam dunk number one overall draft pick at QB while the latter probably has a 2nd or 3rd rounder.
Wisconsin, Alabama, LSU, and Florida State run kind of pro-style offenses (The first three don't really have prostyle passing games, the last two do a decent amount of spread stuff, and the middle two have their scoring inflated by their awesome defenses).
If Ohio State starts running a spread option offense, we will be the team with the highest recruiting ceiling (By a decent margin) running that type of offense which could help us recruit running quarterbacks. We also wouldn't have Oregon's problem of not being athletic enough on the offensive line to get dominated by elite defensive lines (We have obviously had that problem in the past, but no Bollman + spread blocking schemes are simpler).
I think that it is easy to forget that this is essentially the same staff under which the Buckeyes have enjoyed the best average finishing position in both the Coaches and the AP polls over the last ten years out of every team in the nation. We have gotten to enjoy a national championship and been close enough to two more to make it real painful. But this staff has given us a heck of a ten years. The offense has done a great job of utilizing the talent that they have, whether that is Krenzel, Smith or Boeckman or Pryor and changing the offense to put the best 11 on the field. They also have been developing relationships with high school football in Ohio, the players of which are the life blood of the program. I don't think that we should fire anybody. We lost our best offensive mind in Tressel, and we need to replace him with somebody else, but they don't have to be the head coach. Remember that Tressel called the plays, this is Bollman's first year as a play caller. Why not try to find someone to be the co offensive coordinator along with him.
I have gone completely insane and made a list of potential people that could fill such a role. Is it a waste of time? My wife would say so, but I did it in secret. And yes I am embarrassed.
1) Matt Canada formerly the QB coach and OC at Indiana and formerly and currently the OC and QB coach at Northern Illinois. And the guy likes the Pistol
2) Mike Bajakian QB coach and OC at Cinci these days. He has been hanging with Butch Jones for a while now at everyones favorite directional _ichigan school.
3) Blake Anderson working with Larry Fedora at Southern Miss. He looks insane in the same vein as that new dude at West Virginia
4) Scott Satterfield this guy knows how to beat _ichigan. He was the impetus behind the change to the spread at Appy State and then went to Toledo with Beckman and is now at FIU
5) Scott Frost the guy isn't a coordinator, but a Co Offensive coordinator would be a good career move for the dude. Besides he comes from everyone's current favorite offense, those Mighty Ducks who with a TON of luck we will meet in Pasadena. Knock on wood and Cross those Fingers and find religion. As Judy Tenuta used to say "It could happen."
Or if we can't find a former quarterback we could always try Steed Lobotzke from Wake Forest, one of the best named men in the business. He also used to work with Grobe at Ohio U.
If you haven't noticed, the top 5 of these guys are former quarterbacks. Sorry for the long waste of time, but it was fun to think about. Go Buckeyes.