After watching the Cavs vs. Heat game I can't tell what infuriates me more: LeBron James hitting the game tying 3 and turning to the sideline and taunting the crowd; staring for several seconds, puffing out his chest, taking out his mouthpiece, and staring at the fans some more...or Cleveland fans that are bandwagon Miami Heat/LeBron James fans in the arena tonight.
I watched the game tonight, and even when the Cavs were up 27 (I'm a realist) I kept turning to my friends and saying, "Just watch, the Heat are going to come back and win this game. They're too good and we're too bad (keep in mind we're without our 3 best players)." I was fully expecting the Heat to rally and win. I wasn't upset about that. I won't even get into the terrible refereeing at the end of the game that gave the ball to the Heat on that questionable reviewed call with 5 seconds left in a 1 pont game, that's not the point. I fully expected the Heat to come back and win as the far far superior team. There were only two things that chapped my ass in this game. The first being when James hit the game tying 3 pointer. He stops, turns, faces the crowd, stares.....stares, takes his mouthpiece out, puffs his chest out, stares, stares and stares some more. This asshole has the audacity to blatantly taunt the hell out of the fans that once devoted everything to him, only to watch him rip their hearts out whilst spitting in their face...he goes out of his way to taunt them (being one of the worst teams in the NBA, with their 3 best players hurt...it's not like he just hit a big shot against the Thunder and got caught up in the moment or something. Way to go on the big win, buddy). That was the only time I left my seat on the evening. Not even when he hit the jump shot. Not even after he turned to the crowd. Not even after he stood there for a couple seconds. But after he took his mouthpiece out and continued to stare at and taunt the crowd after several additional seconds. Then I left my seat and expletives began to fly. Beat my team (the same team you crushed/quit on to take a shortcut to a championship), fine. But to turn and taunt us like that??
Then as I watch the replays in the highlights of the whole game I can't help but notice there's more than a handful of people in the arena rocking Cavs jerseys that are cheering every time he scores. Then I start ascending from my seat again. I always considered Cleveland fans to be some of the best and most devoted in the country to their city and to live and die by their city's teams (I'm Cleveland all the way, despite growing up in Columbus)...but this just made me sick. I saw fans wearing Cavs #23 jerseys that were going nuts as the Heat made their comeback throughout the highlights. I couldn't figure out who enraged me more...LeBron for the aforementioned reason...or the fans I saw encouraging him to beat their hometown team, that were so excited to try and high five him going in and out of the tunnel, that were clearly such bandwagon losers that even they had the audacity to pound their chest to the Heat as if it was their team all along...all the while they're wearing a wine and gold #23 uniform. Firstly, at least show up to the game wearing a Miami #6 jersey instead of your old #23 Cavs jersey and second...go jump off a bridge. You deserve to dissolve into a murky death in the Cuyahoga.
This is not about whether or not LeBron James deserves due as the world's greatest player. He was (the world's greatest) when he left the Cavs, and he's an even a greater player now. I watch the guy and shake my head at how good he is every damn day. This is about how big of a d-bag he is vs. how big of a d-bag his bandwagon fans are. After all, where were they before he won his title? There's a lot of talk about him coming back to Cleveland some day. I would never, ever root or clap my hands for him again. If he did come back I would watch and continue to root for Cleveland...but I wouldn't celebrate that asshole for another split second of my life. Kyrie for MVP.
EDIT: This also really isn't about whether or not he was justified in leaving. Whole different argument for a whole different day. But if we as fans are supposed to understand it's just a business for him, he should then understand it's just fandom for us fans. If you want to criticize the few jerkoffs that were caught by the news cameras burning his jersey for taking the low road, then how can you defend and justify LeBron taking the low road and taunting the fans? We didn't all burn his jersey and don't all actively root against him. It's not like he hasn't heard boos in every arena he's been in in the country and if you want to say it's just him being him and being excited, fine...but I don't see other greats taunting the crowd without being labeled as d-bags either (and that's without the history he has). He can plummet himself into the same category as that d-bag Marshall Henderson at Ole Miss and some can defend him to the core as we know that's the fashionable thing to do these days.
Hard to believe Cleveland fans are thought of so poorly with something like this coming from a Cavs fan. What's he supposed to do? Not be himself? That's LeBron man. No different than any other great. It's all sour grapes.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Sour grapes. Maybe. I'd be pissed at any other player taunting our fans like that. I didn't like when T.O. did it either. I especially didn't like when a guy who has this much history with the city/area and being his hometown and he turns and taunts them like they're his rival enemy. No other great ever lived under the circumstances he created for himself and then exacerbates it only the way he can at every chance he gets.
I don't like LeBron. However he did, I think mention, on his way out of town that he considered Akron his hometown and not Cleveland..............And I want to add that we did make lots of noise about lots of different things concerning LeBron (how much he was gonna be hated, How Dan Gilbert said Cleveland would win a title before LeBron etc etc). So for LeBron not to get excited about a big come back in front of his ex teams fans is a little bit unreasonable I'd say.............
Battles are sometimes won by generals; wars are nearly always won by sergeants and privates. Football is no different, the guys down in the trenches win the games, not the coach.
I watch players get excited about big plays every day in the NBA. I watch players hit game winning shots in basketball every day. The d-bags I've seen turn to the crowd, stare them down and taunt them so far this year have been LeBron James and that total d-bag down in Ole Miss, Marshall Henderson. I don't see the "other greats" as have been referenced doing the same...especially to their former team/area, where there's already a history.
I guess then we'll agree to disagree because I might want everyone to know it was me who made the shot especially against my former team and especially the way the split up happened...............and Im a cavs fan
Battles are sometimes won by generals; wars are nearly always won by sergeants and privates. Football is no different, the guys down in the trenches win the games, not the coach.
Fair enough...I would probably feel the same way...but I enjoyed the role of the heel :-)
Kobe does it all the time
Do you mean the fans that obsessed over him, then shit on him for trying to better his career? Cleveland is a dump.
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...Says the guy with the WWF character as his avatar.
Time and change will surely show how firm they friendship... O-HI-O.
Pretty sure these are Lebrons thoughts on Bolts post....
What would you say? you're a Bulls fan, then? You firstly do not understand what it's like to be a Cleveland sports fan. I apologize to sound that pretentious (as a loser), but you don't. You also think Chicago fans would just've been totally cool if Jordan would've won a couple MVPs, been a part of teams with the best record in the sport for a couple years, shrank in the playoffs (to the point of seemingly quitting) and then left to go join Stockton and Malone in Utah and taunted the Chicago crowd when he came home for the first time after winning a title? I know that's inconceivable, right? Don't compare LeBron to "other greats" because it's not at all the same. Jordan didn't even taunt opposing crowds like that for his rivals (let alone his hometown crowd).
The same city that proudly and publicly burned his jersey is upset he pounds his chest after bringing his team back from 27? Got it. I've tried to discuss LeBron with Cleveland fans and I'm constantly met with 'you don't know' so I'll leave this one be. Be mad, be angry, I guess I never will get it.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Well, you certainly can't claim there's precedence with this kind of situation in sports.
I'm with you, the guy can't win. Michael Jordan taunted fans and players and was loved for it...
MJ talked trashed on the floor like no other. I don't recall seeing him turn and stare down the opposing fans after a big shot. Maybe he'd shoot a glance at an individual who'd been harassing him all game on his way down the floor but that's about it. He'd maybe pose like he did after hitting game winners or jump up and down...I don't recall him ever just turning and staring, or doing something similar to blatantly taunt the crowd. Reggie Miller maybe? It's not like Knicks fans have warm fuzzy feelings for him either. Hey, the guy can do what he wants...but he has continued to exacerbate things with some of the things he's said and some of the things he's done. What I came down to at the end of my rant was that there's been talk about a return to Cleveland. I don't want to see it. There's no way I can support this guy if he came back.
"staring" maybe not but talking towards the crowd yes. I count them as the same...
Accurate.
Taquitos.
What excuse did Cavs fans give him not to taunt them though? I'm one of the rare Cleveland fan's you'll find who actually likes Lebron James (not the Heat, but I respect great basketball and Lebron is just that, great). But after Lebron left Cavs fans did more than just "stare and stare and stare." They burned his jersey, they made jokes about Delonte West and his mom, hell even our owner took a few pot shots. This was Lebron's first time back in Cleveland with a ring, and I think he was just trying to tell Cleveland fans "look at me now." Hard to fault the man, he left to chase rings and he got one and probably will get several more
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
Fair enough. I won't fault fans of LeBron's for being fans of his...but I'm a fan of Cleveland. I don't see how you can expect us to shrug our shoulders and just say, "well, he's good, so whatever." Matter of fact, I do do that to a point with the guy. I don't even actively root against him. But this guy only exacerbates the issues he has with the city. A few people were caught on TV burning his jersey and he didn't have the support of his city for blatantly quitting on the team to try and take a shortcut to a ring. So sue them. They (we) are fans. We don't like to see our favorite player on our favorite team (who also happens to be the most transcendent player in the sport since the greatest himself) quit and then hold pep rallys the following day brazenly staking claim to not one, not two, not three, not four...etc.
I'm not saying what Lebron did was right, I'm saying I can understand why he felt justified in taunting Cavs fans who have treated him so horribly the past few years. As a Cavs fan, it hurt seeing James leave, but are you honestly telling me you wouldn't? Cleveland is not his hometown, it's Akron, so the whole hometown sentiment is way overblown. The NBA is more a business than a sport, and Lebron wants to be at the top of his field the same way anyone else does. If there's an easier route to the top, why not take it?
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
True enough. I didn't really fault him for leaving in the original point. If Cavs fans can't blame him for leaving, he can't really blame them for being upset about it. It's a business for him and it's fandom for fans. Just because a few people are caught on camera burning his jersey he's supposed to take the low road as well himself? Does that then put him in the same realm as those lowly few for coming back and taunting everyone? Why do you then defend him while criticizing "them"? I didn't burn his jersey. I don't actively root against him. I'm excited about Kyrie and "meh" about him winning his title (it had to happen sooner or later...he's too damn good). I'm going to get pissed when any player chooses to taunt my fans and just the fact that there's a history there only adds fuel to the fire.
I don't really want to join this conversation because I don't think anything good will come from it; however, I would point out that many of Cleveland fans HATE LeBron and they hate him at unimaginable and unhealthy levels. It is not merely those "few" that burned his jersey. The level of hate doesn't make any since to me. LeBron left but, I must point out, he did not leave at the end of his first contract. It was at the end of his second contract. Plenty of players have left my preferred teams via free agency and I have never had such hate to one of those players just because he left via free agency to go to another team. Cleveland fans will try to tell you that the hate is because of how LeBron left but that is not it all. It is because he left and that alone. Dislike him, sure. Despise him, I don't get it.
By the way, I used to be a pretty big Cavs fan (although I have never been a huge fan because I am not much of a fan of the NBA). I now don't care for the Cavs much and that is because of the actions of the owner and the actions of what I consider to be a majority of the fans towards LeBron. I also feel that I am not alone in that thought and that those same actions will hinder the Cavs' efforts to grab top free agents and become a true contender.
well said Triv - the dude in the tshirt on the floor last night is about the only Cavs fan Ive seen who makes sense. 2014 COME HOME
I've said it before, but as relentlessly self-promoting as The Decision may have been, the idea wasn't his own and it raised millions for the Boys and Girls Club of Greenwich. To be honest, I couldn't think of a more beneficial way to sign with a club. I mean, yeah--it was way more exuberant than a press conference, but at least it was for a (really) good cause. It may have gotten under people's skin, but if I were him I'd do it any day to effortlessly raise that kind of dough for charity.
I get that he left, but I don't think he deserves the vitriol he receives. He took a pay cut for a better chance to win it all--I mean, isn't this kind of comparable to a guy like Ezekial Elliot choosing OSU over Missouri? Trading sure fire stardom on a potential contender for a chance at immortality. I'm not trying to say that I'm glad or happy that he left--it sucked that he did, and frankly Cleveland's been through enough--but I don't think that he owed it to anyone to stay.
If we play Mizzou @ Mizzou and Elliott, after winning a national championship and Heisman stands in front of the Mizzou crowd after scoring a touchdown, taunts his hometown crowd...I'll say, "damn, guy."
If he does that to every team before hand, I wouldn't see the issue.
haha, touche. I'd still say d-bag. I never said LBJ wasn't a d-bag before he left Cleveland as well. This is just certainly a unique situation, I guess.
Fair enough. I mean, I still would call it unecessary, but most Atheletes just do what they do and I can't fault them for that. That being said, I hate Ronaldo, but what he did when he came back to play against Man U was pure class.
So you're saying he didn't score the crucial goal and then pose in front of and taunt the Man U crowd? I'm just joshin' ya. I definitely hear your point as well. I'm not completely unreasonable...even though I'm a Cleveland fan :-)
If EzE did that in in Columbia, I'd be just as incensed as you would be. "Damn, guy" would be the tip of my iceberg, haha.
But, to be fair, I don't recall the city of Columbia burning effigies of him in mass protest when he signed with OSU. I'm not tryin to justify his taunting--I didn't see the game, but it seems like a dick move--I'm just trying to say that he probably did it because he feels defensive about how he's been so crucified by his city--a move that I don't think he deserves. It's worth mentioning that he still pours money into his foundation that directly supports that Akron area, as well.
I've been a Bengals fan my entire life, and I'll admit that when Carson Palmer left I was pretty incensed--but it was because he quit on his contract and trashed the fans in the process. I didn't see LeBron do that when he left Cleveland. Sure, there was a big hubbub about "Being the villain", but I don't recall him trashing the fans (if he did at the time that he left, I'll stand corrected) on his way out.
LeBron didn't necessarily quit on his contract, but he did quit on Cleveland (he had a team that was on the brink and thought he saw an easier guaranteed cakewalk to a title. I personally don't find that endearing and could go into a rant about how that's ruining the NBA and small market teams...but that's not the point here) And here he is essentially "talking shit" to the fans (directly to their face as oppose to Carson...I'll give him that much credit). I don't think it's really fair for any sports fan to dislike a player for one reason or another and then criticize a Cavs fan for disliking LeBron James for their one reason or another. It's not really fair to characterize all Cavs fans as the few that news crews aimed their cameras at for a jersey burning session. Most sports fans' reasons for disliking players are far more trivial than those reasons that have to do with LBJ. Aside from that, what Ohio State fan wouldn't get pissed about a parallel situation in which we played Alabama next year and they had a Heisman winning runningback who scored a crucial TD and taunted the home OSU crowd? ...and that's not even to take into account the whole background history w/ LBJ that wouldn't even be present in that situation.
I don't actively root against James and am kind of meh whatever about him winning his title and everything. I will root for my team to beat him (though I don't expect them to) and will still get pissed if any player taunts my brethren let alone this guy I'm especially gunning for us to beat and has that kind of history here.
Again, taunting is always a dick move. We should all strive to rise above the fray. I didn't mean to generalize all Cavs fans as the crazies who burned jersies, which I did--and for that I apologize. But it is worth mentioning that there was quite the sizable contingent that were vocally furious about his departure (the merits of which notwithstanding--I'm with you on "destroying small market teams", though), and that made their "plight" national news. I'd like to think that if LeBron was trying to taunt anyone, it was reserved for them. Granted, it's still a dick move; we should all strive to rise above the fray.
I don't mean to criticize Cavs fans for hating LeBron--by all means, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness should include dispising whomever you like--I just tend to believe that while the man didn't make the most "honorable" choice (at least in my own opinion), I didn't find any wrong with it morally or ethically (which is more than I can say for many an athlete). Therefore while I'm disappointed he wasn't who I hoped he was, I don't hate him for the choice he made. It seems that many choose to hate him for that reason alone, which I don't get. That said, hating him for taunting you and your team is something I do understand.
NAILED IT
If you want be upset be mad at Danny Ferry for surrounding him with bums for 7 years. Or Dan Gilbert for not firing Danny Ferry sooner. We aren't mad when kids leave their hometown to come play for our Buckeyes. To hate LeBron for leaving to pursue Championships is hypocritical.
Follow me @jaythesportsguy
This is the laziest, most regurgitated argument of them all. Please let me know what players were available via free agency that the Cavs could've gotten during his time there. I'd like to know who was available, because no one with this argument can produce a list of great running mates that were there for the taking...because there were none. It's not like you can just go and pay Kobe Bryant to be a Cav now. This also has nothing really to do with my point. I'm not even bringing up whether or not he was justified in leaving anywhere in this.
Other teams were able to put together good teams over the 7 years LeBron was in Cleveland. Why could other teams do it but Cleveland not?
They were able to. In fact they had one of the best two year stretches in NBA history. The tied an NBA record for home wins in a season. They were a very good team. You'll recall who wilted in the playoffs against the Celtics was LeBron himself. The one who put his hands on his knees and stood disinterested in the corner. The Cavs were on the brink and LeBron still had another level that he hadn't even reached, which we're seeing today. There's no doubt in my mind that, especially with an aging Celtics team, the Cavs would've won a title if not multiple titles.
Fixed that for you. This is what goes unchecked with Cavs fans-LeBron was the reason they won anything of any substance in his 7 years on the lake. They were never on the verge. He was doomed to be Allen Iverson if he didn't get out-and I mean that as a compliment to he and AI's game. On any given night, AI was the best player on the floor-just like James-and the height of his success was already reached. In Iverson's case it was LA pounding his Sixers into the ground in the finals and in James' case it was the Spurs pounding the Cavs into the ground.
How on earth is his entire career in Cleveland summed up to one camera shot against Boston? A GAME IN WHICH HE SCORED A TRIPLE DOUBLE AND STILL LOST? How on earth is that one him? That is him literally saying "I've done everything I can-I have a triple double and my team still can't help me".
But he quit? Come on. Get over yourselves.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Bingo ;)
Exactly............Thats who I'm mad at........He's the one who didnt surround LeBron with the right talent...
Battles are sometimes won by generals; wars are nearly always won by sergeants and privates. Football is no different, the guys down in the trenches win the games, not the coach.
Like who?
it doesn't matter who was available and who wasn't...it was Danny Ferry's job to get talent here to
help LeBron and he didn't do it. You can go on and on and on to eternity about this subject if you wanted to. Honestly I don't want to continue to kick what i consider to be a dead horse, but please feel free to continue on down that particular road by yourself
Battles are sometimes won by generals; wars are nearly always won by sergeants and privates. Football is no different, the guys down in the trenches win the games, not the coach.
Again, let me preface this by saying it doesn't really have a ton to do with the point of this whole thing to begin with, but since we're on it...
The Cavs won 60 games. They had two of the best back to back seasons in NBA history before LeBron left (in fact had a better record than what the Heat have been on pace for). They didn't have a true second superstar sidekick, but they had a roster full of role players that included shooters, defenders, hustle players, rebounders, size, anything you wanted. They had a bench that went so deep that a guy like Danny Green who is a starter for the 2nd best team in the NBA was the 12th man on the roster. If you go back to that last playoff series it was LeBron himself who shrank and vanished against the Celtics to the point where everyone questions whether he quit on his team.
Sports doesn't work like, I want a star player so I'm going to set $120 million on a table and come back and hope a star player magically appears. There were no players available via free agency and the Cavs year in and year out made trades to significantly upgrade their roster...even taking on bad contracts just to appease LeBron. A lot of the deals they made were at the request of LeBron himself! Danny Ferry pulled off some masterful deals in which he'd pull in players with some value or at least an upgrade to what they have for little to no cost. The ONLY thing you can criticize the Cavs on were some of their draft picks in the early LeBron years....and in those years Gilbert and Ferry weren't even there yet. By the time they were really involved the Cavs had non impact picks well outside the lottery due to their own success.
This comment seems as good a place as any to type my response because I can say my piece about why I can't stand #6. Everyone blames Danny Ferry for not surrounding #6 with the necessary talent during his time here. On the surface, I might even agree with you, but let's go back in time for a second. #6's refusal to give the Cavs' FO any inkling as to what his long-term plans were hamstrung the FO's ability to go out and get young, on-the-rise free agent talent. Instead, they had to bring in guys like Wally S., a past-his-prime Ben Wallace, and other guys of that mold. For example, I remember being really hopeful that Trevor Ariza would sign with Cleveland. Whether or not he would've put the Cavs over the hump alongside #6 is debatable, but the fact is, he's the kind of guy the FO was trying to get but seemingly never could. Why is that? Because #6 never made it publicly known that he intended to stay in Cleveland. If the centerpiece of the franchise never made it known that he intended to stay, would you commit? No. Then, after #6 made his Decision, the Cavs were nothing more than a really old, really expensive team that was nowhere near the top of the NBA heap. He left this franchise in shambles, and yes, I lay this at his feet. I am a huge Chris Grant fan, and while the wins haven't consistently come yet, you cannot deny that there is a LOT of GOOD, young talent on this team, and we're set up pretty well in the draft and in the pocketbook. It's been a long, hard dig out, and it's all #6's fault. It would be just like him, too, to leave the franchise in dire straits, leave for four years, and then come back when Grant and Co. have the house in order, and reap the benefits of someone else's hard work.
As far as last night, I live out of the Cavs market so, I didn't get to see the game, but that taunting that was described sounds just like the egomaniac I believe him to be. I know Cavs Nation was incensed when #6 left, and there were some strong reactions to his departure, but why would you go out of your way to make a spectacle of yourself through puffing your chest like he did last night? And I, too, noticed on the highlights that there were way too many people in The Q celebrating when Miami was in the midst of their comeback. Shameful. If he comes back in 2014, my reaction will be, "meh." I can't control his potential return anyway, so why get worked up, but I will absolutely not jump for joy because he's back in town.
I couldn't agree more. Except the part that it's all LeBron's fault that the franchise was left in shambles. I do place at least a little of the blame on Ferry and Gilbert just in that they gave him the keys to the franchise and spent the whole time bowing to his every demand. It's hard not to when your entire franchise, the future of the NBA, and the biggest economic boost to the city keeps dropping hints that he's going to bolt for NYC unless this or unless that happens. They maybe could've drawn a line...but you can't blame them too much for trying to hang on to something transcendent and special. I also agree that Chris Grant's been doing a great job shedding any bad contracts and loading up on young talent with more draft picks and tons of spending money going forward. I'm excited about Kyrie and the Cavs' future.
Ridiculous for someone to say the Cavs didn't surround Lebum with talent! People who say that obviously didn't pay attention! The Cavs brought in every free agent that Lebum wanted, at the expense of the future. Shaq, Jamison, Hughes, the list goes on. He was consulted on every transaction the Cavs made! They had the best record in basketball for two years. Against Boston his last year, he flat out quit.
For people to judge Cleveland fans while they sit in a recliner in another state, don't judge or speak on what you don't know. I promise i won't pretend to know your area and tell you how you should feel.
Are you saying LeBron was supposed to be responsible for building his own supporting cast? Let's be real. That team should've had a championship during his last 4 years, and the blame doesn't fall on LeBron.
No, he wasn't responsible for building his own team, but as I said up the page a little, his refusal to commit long-term hurt the front office's ability to get young, up-and-coming talent and had to go the older, tail-end-of-their-prime talent instead. He played a major role in what the FO was or was not able to do, based on his secretive approach to the summer of '10.
Look, I won't endorse anything about the way he handled the situation when he left, but I also won't crucify the guy for leaving Cleveland for a better situation.
The front office handled his 7 years in Cleveland questionably at best. They gave him a carousel of ill-fitting coaches, seemed to be only partially invested in building a complete team, and he went to a team where he could win.
Overall, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I am with you on some of the coaching decisions, though. I can see that point. But I stand by my belief that his unwillingness to commit kept Ferry and Co. from being able to get young talent to grow WITH him. Rather, they had to try to win a title in a hurry with older, more expensive talent in case he decided to leave.
I couldn't disagree more. Danny Ferry was dealing with being hamstrung by cap issues and did whatever he could to upgrade the team every year via trade. There simply wasn't a fix all free agent that was out there and available. The argument that they had a bad team is a bad one. They were the best team in the NBA and one of the absolute best defensive teams in the league. I'm not sure about this "carousel of coaches" but anyone they brought in was to appease the King himself and Mike Brown was there when the team was performing at an extremely high level, especially on defense, which is Brown's specialty.
Wait a minute - I hope I didn't imply they were a bad team. You don't win 60+ games in back-to-back years and be a bad team. But who were they acquiring in those trades? Long in the tooth vets with heavy contracts. I don't remember any trades like the one earlier this year with Memphis. Then when #6 left, they were really old and really expensive.
@Jeff I was replying to @BuckI.8
Thank you! No one wants to remember the Lebron RE-SIGNED an additional contract he did not have to - he could have left years earlier, but indeed gave Ferry & Cleve the 1st 7YEARS of his life, the last contract voluntarily!
Yeah, we should be mad at Danny Ferry for signing guys who were seen as the best available players to sign at the time. Or Dan Gilbert for shelling out the money to pay those guys. The Cavaliers had the best record in basketball for 2 years in a row. They were favorites to win a title across the country.
Sure, hindsight is 20/20. But to say that he was surrounded by bums for 7 years in flat-out wrong. You don't go 66-16 with bums on your team.
The Cavaliers organization did everything they possibly could to win a championship. LeBron tells everyone his one goal is to be the man to finally bring a championship to Cleveland. He then proceeds to make a mockery of Cleveland on national television. Then he celebrates his imaginary 7 titles in one of the worst PR moves I've ever seen with his All-Star buddies who are providing the easy way out. I'll stick to being upset with LeBron, and not Dan Gilbert, one of the best owners the city has had in quite some time, thanks.
Brady Hoke's reaction to the Urban Meyer hire: "Not good."
Which is like being the tallest man at a midget convention....
LeBron was the reason they won 66. Take him out and that's a 30 win basketball team at best.
That year he lead the team in points, boards, assist and steals. He could do no more than he did. But don't let stats and facts get in your way.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
You're missing my point. Of course he's the reason they won 66, LeBron is amazing. They tailored the team to be immensely successful around his talents, and they did that successfully.
Without him, the team would have been constructed completely differently.
Brady Hoke's reaction to the Urban Meyer hire: "Not good."
If you truly believe Cleveland gave LeBron the same level of help Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, or any other multiple ring player did then I have nothing else to say.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
I don't think you're allowing the converse argument to get in the way of your opinion.
What's the converse argument? The year the Cavs won the 66 games, LeBron was the only player in the NBA to lead his team in points, boards, dishes, and steals but that wasn't enough because the team around him wasn't good enough. The game in which he supposedly quit, he nailed down yet another triple double in a loss-because the team around him wasn't good enough.
You can't do more than a 3X2. If you do that and your team loses, it isn't on you, yet Cavs fans are all but certain it was. The wins aren't apparently on him according to some here (admittedly Not Tresselmeyer) but the losses all are. The team wins 66 but LeBron loses when the losses come. Revisionist history.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
That was the year they picked up Mo Williams. You're not letting yourself see that the Cavs were trying very hard to get players to support James. I won't argue how important James was to the team, he was the team and league MVP, but you're saying that James was the entire team and he absolutely was not.
I think that he's trying to say that no single elite player was asked to do more for his team than LeBron with the Cavs. He might not have been the whole team, but he was a lot more isolated than guys like Kobe and Jordan.
Nope, that's exactly what I'm saying. LeBron James was the whole team.
Mo Williams huh? I guess Williams\James ranks right up there with Wade\Shaq, Kobe\Shaq, Parker\Duncan, Michael\Scottie and so on...
Are you seeing the trend? Look at the finals history since 1988, Every team that won it had more than one horse to lean on, every single one. Cleveland may have tried-I can soften on my stance that they weren't. I'm not really saying they didn't try, but they certianly didn't succeed at giving James what he needed. The NBA works this way, you need another star and since Wade and Miami was the best available option for a guy who needs help, I don't care what James did.
It also wasn't the easy way out by any stretch. I won't defend the decision or the look at me show the Heat put on when James\Wade\Bosh got down there-but what the hell do you think the rest of the NBA felt about that? For three years now, Miami has gotten every single team's best shot night in and night out. They just happen to have the horses to over come other team's best effort. Make no mistake about it though, it gets harder when your roster is loaded, not easier.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
You keep railing on the fact that he put up a triple double in Game 7, and that supposedly Cleveland fans are saying he "quit" that game. Nobody is saying that. Game 5 matters just as much as Game 7, in the grand scheme of things (actually you could say it means more, since the winner of Game 5 in a best of 7 has a huge advantage), and he laid the egg of a lifetime. Its not just that he sucked, its HOW he sucked. If MJ had a bad game, he'd go down with no bullets left in the gun. LeBron never took his out of the holster.
And no one's saying Mo Williams was the savior. He sucked in the playoffs sometimes, too. The fact that you have hindsight to tell you that Larry Hughes, Antawn Jamison, Mo Williams, Shaq, etc. ultimately weren't good enough to get it done doesn't mean that they weren't seen as hugely monumental acquisitions for the Cavs at the time.
Brady Hoke's reaction to the Urban Meyer hire: "Not good."
Ok, this puts the cherry on it for me.
The series was tied 2-2 when LeBron stunk up the joint. I'm not arguing that he didn't, you aren't saying he didn't, the guy flat out stunk. Game 6, his team is down 3-2, facing elimination and he plays the game of his life trying to bring his team back. He fails to do so, Cleveland loses, Boston moves on and James is labled a quitter-for quitting in a non elimination game?
Let me ask you this, if the Cavs win game 6, and turn around to win 7-regardless of what happens in the finals is James a quitter?
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
I wouldn't say that was anywhere near the game of his life. Quite sure he would tell you that too. 8-21 from the field. 9 turnovers. Its great that he had a triple double and all, but if you actually watched the game you would know that it wasn't too great. Completely disappeared in the 4th quarter when they needed him most. Made 2 3's to cut it to a 4 point game with 10 minutes left. 6 minutes later, the Cavs have scored 2 points and are now losing by 14, and this great warrior has attempted one shot in that span. Great stuff.
I guess he should have picked up an extra turnover so you could tell me how historic and great his quadruple double was!
Brady Hoke's reaction to the Urban Meyer hire: "Not good."
Game of his life is hyperbole, my bad.
But doesn't that tell you something right there-cuts the game to 4 and then what help does he get? Nothing. 19 boards is a guy trying to help his team, 10 assists is a guy trying to help his team. 27 points is trying to go toe to toe with Boston's three hall of famers.
If those Cavs teams were so good, where was the help in that 6 minutes? That's a microcosm of the time he spent in Cleveland. Right there in 6 minutes-no matter what you do LeBron, no matter how you play, you will never win it here in Cleveland. You got us to this point, can you keep taking us any further? See because we suck and can't do dick if you aren't good....please LeBron, help! Boston has three guys they can lean on, we have one. If you aren't on, we all are off-but don't you dare leave, boy-we'll hate you forever.
I'm finished here. Good discussion-the grapes will always be sour.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
You're absolutely delusional. As discussed before, this was obviously a team built around LeBron's skills and ability to manage the offense. In the 4th quarter of a pivotal game, he's not scoring, he's not assisting, he's not doing much of anything. This was a guy who ONCE SCORED 25 POINTS IN A ROW in a playoff game BY HIMSELF and he's not even trying to score?!? What??
Sorry, MJ doesn't stand idly by and watch Toni Kukoc run the offense at that point. Kobe isn't kicking it out to Rick Fox for the open J at that point. The best player in the world is supposed to say F U, I'm scoring and you can't stop me. Or at least, you know, try.
Brady Hoke's reaction to the Urban Meyer hire: "Not good."
@Brewsters
You're speaking entirely in hyperbole on this whole subject. I don't think anyone's implying LeBron had the greatest team on the planet but you seem to be the only person implying he had the worst team on the planet. Neither is true. Lets try to bring this back toward the middle a little bit.
Jesus, are Cleveland fans still bent out of shape because Lebron left Cleveland? As my lifelong Clevelander/Cavs roommate told me "If I were Lebron, I would have left Cleveland long before then." Don't get me wrong, being the only Ohio NBA team I grew up a Cavs fan, but you can't seriously be upset at -quite possibly- one of the greatest players to play the game for wanting to get to team where there's an actual TEAM around him. Lebron carried the living hell out of the Cavs when he was there; proven what happened after he left. I'm so tired of hearing this same old crap.
/rant
My post had nothing to do with whether or not he was justified with leaving. That's for a whole 'nother topic of debate.
If we're getting into it though, the whole "look what happened to the Cavs the year after he left" is the 2nd most lazy and regurgitated argument there is. Look at the roster of that team and please realize that after injury and turnover only a couple of the players that were on the floor for that team the year after LBJ left ever set foot on the same floor as him as teammates. Due to injuries and roster turnover, they had starting lineups that included D-league players that never played with him. As for players that were on his roster while he was there, you can look all the way to the end of their deep bench and see guys like Danny Green who are starting for the Spurs, the second best team in bball, and contributing heavily...yet were the 12th man off the Cavs' bench. If we want to talk about supporting casts, if that was the big issue then clearly LeBron should've just started winning titles from the moment he stepped on the court with other hall of fame players, right? He didn't. Again though, not the point of this post in the first place.
No, I'm not bent out of shape anymore. When the cHeat won the title last year, it didn't even move my "jealousy" needle. But I'm also not going to act like Cavs fans didn't have good reasons at the time to be incensed that he left, and I will be willing to share those with anyone that will listen.
He sure as hell was gonna win it sooner or later. I wasn't upset about it either. He's too good and has gotten so much better than even I thought he could to not win one. I have no doubt in my mind that, as good as he has become in the last couple years he would've won a title with the Cavs if not multiples.
That's plain ridiculous to insist they would have won multiple titles if he stayed.
Those people wearing his jersey are those who want him to come back, or those who only rooted for Cleveland when we had him. Being someone who used to be made fun of when I was a kid growing up in Parma for liking basketball, that second group of people I mentioned for sure pisses me off. Everyone liked the Indians out here because they were great, then they fell off & the Cavs got LeBron & all of a sudden everybody loves Basketball & the Cavs. People are like that, we just have to accept it I guess. But atleast the Kyrie era seems to be more real, the LeBron bandwagon fans have dissapeared into the woodwork. Now they're just those dudes who wear Heat/Celtic/Laker snapbacks everyday or those who once again could care less about Basketball. We put out a good number of people in the crowd for a bad team every night, this era is actually more enjoyable for me. And when LeBron turned to the crowd tonight and looked like he was trying to smash the basketball between his hands, I was cussing too. What a stupid asshole.
It's 5 o'clock somewhere, & Michigan still sucks
Boo Fuckin' Hoo. It seems like most Cleveland fans are mostly over the Lebron thing (and I don't expect you to like him or anything), but the ones that still obsess over it are just making yourself look foolish. He had just led his team from almost 30 down and he was pumped, he's a professional athlete and doesn't owe anyone in Cleveland jack shit.
You're not allowed to thump your chest when you barely beat a hobbled Cavs team. It's like when M*chigan fans brag about beating the 2011 Buckeyes.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
You're joking, right? I don't care how bad TTUN is, I brag anytime the Buckeyes get a win over those scUM! :)
Difference is Rich Rod had been coaching for years. He wasn't a assistant that was thrown into the fire.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
It's best to let this thread vanish. Bringing up Wade's boy is as potentially explosive as a religion or politics thread.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
Yeah, you're probably right, haha. I don't start threads at all typically, but I think I had one too many a Manhattan tonight. Was probably just venting mostly just about how I was pissed to see Cavs fans wearing #23 jerseys and cheering for LeBron over their own team and that I mostly laughed and shook my head throughout this game until LeBron decided to taunt the crowd...at which point I stood up and had a few choice words for my tv (I'm not sure what if any LeBron himself heard lol). This post really was supposed to be a lot more innocent than it turned out to be. I regret that it's going to turn into another "whether he was justified" thread. Oh well.
Those are the same people that blamed everyone but LeBron whenever the Cavs lost.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
He promised to bring Cleveland a championship. Not only did he not do that, but he seemed indifferent to even trying (not signing a contract that would have reassured potential free agent signees, not recruiting people to play with him like he has in Miami, refusing to use his strength in the post because he wanted to be Michael, shrinking like Mike Hart against the Buckeyes in his last playoff series). Then he bailed to take the easy way out. Then he comes back to town and taunts a badly outmanned team. He's a scumbag frontrunner, and the people who wear his jersey to Cavs games are like beaten dogs who still live to please their tormentors.
I'm not even a Cavs fan primarily (though I'm happy enough to see them win when they aren't playing my team), but if you're an Ohioan on any level, realize that what the national sports media think of Cleveland (namely, why the hell would anyone want to live there if they had the chance to leave?) is the same thing they think about you.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
An upvote and massive props to you, good sir.
Perfectly said, my friend.
Brady Hoke's reaction to the Urban Meyer hire: "Not good."
Jared Sullinger promised to stay at OSU until he won a title too. I've yet to see any venom tossed at him.
As for Michael-he never had to leave because the Bulls gave him everything he needed to win a title. He needed help just like LeBron and got it. LeBron never had anything some of the all time NBA greats (Kobe, Duncan, Michael, Isiah) all had yet Cavs fans are upset HE never brought THEM a title. The CAVS never brought LeBron or you a title-but blame James. Its easier because he is the best player in the league and should still be serving his time, fighting the good fight, grinding it out carrying bad teams year in and year out....and before anyone points to some of the great records LeBron's Cavs' teams' had, please do me a favor and factor him out of those years-the Cavs are a lottery each year.
I find it just astounding that the guy who took one of the worst groups in Finals history to the championship round, scored how many consecutive buckets to get there, but was given a stark reminder by San Antonio that the game is 5 on 5 not 1 on 5, yet he some how quits? Amazes me how people sum up his entire career in one game in the playoffs at the end of his tenure in Chicago.
I do think I've made a revelation though-Cavs fans (Cleveland fans in general) don't like being called out on this sort of thing because its the only thing they have to cling to-so when I hear "You're a Bulls fan, you don't know" its obviously important that you cling to your hatred. It'll never die, and its one of the most fascinating phenomena in sports.
Wade's Boy? You haven't been watching the NBA this year if you think that's the case. Miami was James' team the second he made the deision.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
BOOYA - you crushed this Brew... have never seen it better stated.
You make a lot of really valid points, rationally stated as well. +1 to you for that.
However:
This is almost as bad as pointing out how much the Cavs sucked without him the following year. The pieces on those teams were acquired because they fit around LeBron. Everyone on the roster was either a shooter to spread the floor, and / or a tough defensive player to help that Cavs team play tremendous defense. Those things worked with enough success that people thought they were going to win the title. Of course the Cavs wouldn't be a great team if he was factored out, they weren't designed to be.
Brady Hoke's reaction to the Urban Meyer hire: "Not good."
People hear "Cleveland didn't help LeBron" and point to the record as a way of saying "Yes they did look!". I'm saying that Cleveland didn't help LeBron and the record was because of him and only him. I know I'm not reinventing the wheel by saying Cleveland would be bad without him,, but they would be abysmal without him-which is something Michael's Bulls couldn't say (They made the playoffs both years he was gone).
Its all selective memory. The 'quitting against Boston' thing is the last straw for me. The idea that he scored a triple double yet some how quit is absurd and no one acknowledges it when its brought up. Its just "Yea he quit".
27\19\10. If that's quitting, I PRAY Derrick Rose quits each and every game of his career.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Didn't they get Shaq and Jamieson to help? and Williams...and Serbiak...and Wallace and Joe Smith, and Delonte West.
Those are names, not players. Again-Bums. All of them (at least at the time in which they got them).
He played a bad game 5, no doubt. Bad games happen, even Mike had them. Game 6 he went down swinging but that doesn't get mentioned-you did it just now-Heck with the fact that he played balls to the wall facing elimination, lets look at game 5 because that suits things better.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
seriously - do you know your bucket from a whole in the ground?? these guys were ALL washed up, that's why they were acquirable. So is Ray Allen - but Bosh & Wade & Chalmers are all at their peak. Yes - Wade - now that he is healthy - only 29.
Talking to you grudge holding haters is like having a pisssing contest with John Wayne Bobbit. You dont have a rational clue & your just getting piss all over your self.The guy is an Ohio boy who loves & shouts out to Ohio & tOSU, has talked of coming back to Ohio. I for one hope he never returns cause you middle aged haters dont deserve Lebron or his talent. I am proud that the greatest hoops player on the planet is from Ohio.
Did you watch Game 5? He stood in the corner and chucked up shitty jumpers, shot 3-15 from the field, couldn't care less that the Cavs were getting blown out of their own building in perhaps the biggest game of his career. He couldn't have seemed more disinterested if he tried.
3-14 from the field for 15 points by the best player in the world, in a huge game. I'm betting you don't pray for that performance from Derrick Rose every game.
Brady Hoke's reaction to the Urban Meyer hire: "Not good."
It was very nearly a quadruple double when you add in his turnovers.
He did some things in garbage time in that Game 6. He didn't play well and no one who commented on the game at the time thought so.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
Look, LeBron didn't do anything worse than the "greats" that came before him. Jordan would mock fans and players and be exalted for it and his greatness. In context LeBron did nothing even comparable to what I've seen Jordan do. Nothing to get worked up over.
None of this bothers me because I don't even pay attention to that thing called the NBA. When you can take what seems to be 4 steps to dunk the ball and nothing is called, I choose to not watch. I couldn't even tell you who won the title last year.
Wow.. when are people going to let this go? I'm a cavs fan and have been a fan of Lebron since he was in high school. Talk about jumping on the bandwagon, everyone just jumped on the lets hate Lebron bandwagon when he left cleveland. If his "decision" would have been to stay in cleveland would he still be such a dbag? Everything I've seen of him, he seems like a great guy. Brewster is right, you're just clinging to your hatred.
Well, sure...I'm clinging to my dislike of LeBron. He keeps inflaming my dislike by some of the things he says and does from time to time. Why do Ohio State fans cling to their dislike of Michigan/Michigan players/Michigan fans? Are you going to tell me that you have no players that you dislike? I'm willing to bet you have players you dislike for far more trivial reasons than the reasons Cleveland fans dislike LeBron. I posted last night because, yes I do dislike LeBron, and I take issue with him taunting Cavs fans (much like I would with anyone doing) but the fact that there's history and we are on a website that generally deals with Ohio sports on top of Ohio State sports, I thought it was fairly relevant.
If you want to try and compare this to college sports I think Russel Wilson transferring to Wisconsin is about the closest thing I can think of that would compare to Lebron leaving. Did you suddenly decided Russel Wilson is a D-bag because he transferred? How many people would still be calling him a d-bag years later? Michigan is a rivalry, and I personally have respect for them as much as dislike. If a player decides to transfer from OSU I don't spend the rest of my life hating them.
I'm not looking for a parallel of a player leaving for one team to the other in a different sport. You're missing the point entirely. My post was in response to people saying I shouldn't dislike LeBron and making it seem stupid to cling to my dislike of a player. I was only pointing out that it's very hypocritical to say that, all the while every sports fan has players/teams that they dislike. I only used OSU/Michigan as an example. Why is Michigan a rivalry? Because people have not been able to let go of their disliking of Michigan over the course of years and years. People dislike sports figures for far more trivial reasons than the ones some Cleveland fans dislike LeBron for. Some sports fans dislike other teams/players simply because that team/player beat their team, even. I think it's hypocritical for people to come in and belittle me for clinging to my dislike of a player when they themselves have probably several players/teams that they themselves continue to dislike. What's the point of sports if you can't like and dislike players/teams?
"This is about how big of a d-bag he is vs. how big of a d-bag his bandwagon fans are."
I get what it's about.. You're bitter that he left Cleveland. I'm trying to say if you are going to talk about bandwagons, you took your opportunity to jump on the I hate Lebron bandwagon when he left Ceveland. You say this isn't about if he's a good basketball player, it's just a personal attack, suddenly overnight Lebron became this horrible person when he decided to leave Cleveland. Lebron who had impeccable character while he was in Cleveland suddenly becomes this evil "D-bag" that is ok to hate, so lets everyone talk as much crap about Lebron as we can. I mean how dare Lebron stare at the crowd for "several seconds," just step back and listen to yourself for a second and you might get why people are tired of hearing this. Lebron is the same person he was when he was in Cleveland and he's one of the most exciting players to watch in the NBA.
Aboslutely the most exciting player in the NBA. It wasn't just overnight. You're kidding yourself if you think that's the case. It's been years of antics and fanning flames every time it seemingly has cooled down. The guy was one of the most hated players in basketball around the country the year he left...not just Cleveland. Now that he's won his championship everyone just gives him a pass. I always thought he was an ego monster in Cleveland but I gave him a pass because he was on my favorite team. I don't think people really do a good enough job of thinking about their own situations. You mean to tell me there isn't a team out there you don't like? I player you don't like? Even forgetting the fact that it's LeBron James, if Kobe Bryant came to Cleveland and pulled the same crap I'd call him a massive d-bag. If Kobe and the Lakers came to town and there was a contingent of Clevelanders showing up to the game in Kobe uniforms that would bother the hell out of me too.
Why do Ohio State fans dislike Desmond Howard? Please answer me this question. And don't pretend that they don't, that would be a flat out lie. Telling me to take a step back and listen to myself...I dislike a basketbally player...like 100% of other basketball fans out there. The only difference is the player I dislike is LeBron James and I'm a Cavs fan and for some reason that's become taboo. The pendulum swung too far on LeBron James. People say he can do no right but that couldn't be further from the truth anymore. It's really quite the opposite.
To the OP, I thought LeBron was a little caddy last night with the celebrations. He has been that way before, but his move to Miami supposedly made him "mature" and he toned down the dancing and charades. He was clearly pumped after the huge comeback, but then they let the Cavs back in it as he and Wade missed bad jumpers down the stretch. Not much to celebrate after having to come back on a 20 win team sans it's three best players, but I guess to keep the streak going added more juice to the win.
As for Cleveland fans, I've come to realize the complexity of feelings for the fans over 25 years old. My Dad grew up a Browns fan, and it's like a family member died when he talks about the heartbreaks. It's been years of well documented losses that have created cynical, pessimistic fans. We deserve to be mad at our misfortune, it's all we have. This is why I hate when people say "move on" "get over it" "quit crying" - the fans have no control over what has transpired with our favorite teams and players, but we reserve the right to feel the way we want. If I'm still alive when the city of Cleveland finally wins a championship, it will be one of the sweetest days of my life. And that's why we keep coming back every Sunday, every Opining Day and electric nights at the Q.
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
As a Cleveland sports fan, we deserve any gloating that LeBron throws our way at this point. People should have moved on by now; it's professional (read: mercenary) sports.
Taquitos.
I am a Cleveland fan who has moved on from LeBron. I hated him for awhile, but then I just kind of got over it. I enjoyed winning with him on the Cavs, but I think we're starting to get the pieces in place to succeed again and that's exciting.
Let go of the LeBron hate. It's not worth it. You can hate the way he acts, but he really doesn't "owe" Cleveland anything. The city and its fans put everything on the table for him, he chose to go win a championship and play with his friends for less money. It wasn't personal. I wish he would have stayed to win one with us, but I don't hold it against him.
I don't really actively root for him to lose. I'm getting ready for the NBA playoffs, which I will watch in its entirety, and fully expect the Heat to go all the way for title #2. I'm not going to just suddenly start liking the guy. I'm not going to sit on the edge of my seat hoping they lose every game. If it's any indication of him taunting the crowd last night, he hasn't let things go either. My final point of the whole post is acknowledging that there's talk of him coming back and I in no way would support it. I do not like him and he only takes measures to endear himself less to myself and a lot of Cavs fans. I would not be able to cheer or root for the guy again not based on his decision to leave (that's part of it, but I could've gotten over that) but the things he's done since. I don't like him and I think a lot of people are just starting to give him a pass for being a d-bag because he's good. I know I gave him a pass for being a d-bag while he was in Cleveland because he was good as well. I'll admit that.
He left Cleveland because he didn't want to EARN a championship like Jordan, He left so he could BUY his championship.
It's as easy as that!!!
Jordan, who's organization gave him two hall of famer's to play with? Jordan, who had one of the greatest 3's to play the game along side him most of his career? Jordan who had a slew of role players around him custom built to his strengths and a coach that was a perfect fit for Mike?
You really don't know what you are talking about.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
The same Michael Jordan who struggled for years against the Detroit Pistons, because he didn't have a decent supporting cast? The one who didn't decide to leave Chicago (a city he had no connection to, by the way, and never promised anything to) to play with other superstars after the Pistons whipped him year after year? And you can see above to my reply regarding role players custom built to the strengths of LeBron. Those early Bulls championship teams weren't exactly stocked to the gills with talent, other than Scottie Pippen, who finally made the leap after a few years in the league.
Brady Hoke's reaction to the Urban Meyer hire: "Not good."
Free Agency wasn't what it is today so there's no knowing what Jordan would do. With that said, Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen were worlds better than anything James had at any point in Cleveland. Pippen was one of the NBA's best all around players while Grant was one of the premier defensive 4's in the league.
People were around LeBron, an NBA roster needs to be full-so in that sense, Cleveland gave LeBron support...I'm saying each year his roster was full of bums. Not the case with Michael-not even remotely close with Michael-when the Bulls finally got over the Pistons hump
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
In the same breath that you can say that Michael was good because his teammates made him better you turn around and say that LeBron's teammates were bums but were made better by LeBron James. The Cavs surrounded him with enough talent to win 60+ games, yet you say that was all due to James. The Bulls had their success in the early 90s and you say that that was due to Jordan's teammates. I can simply agree to disagree with you on this point and say either Jordan made his teammates what they were, just the same as you say LeBron made his teammates what they were or vice versa. I would say that it's likely somewhere in the middle in both cases, rather than on mirror opposite ends.
That's not what I'm saying. Michael did make good players great, and made great players better. LeBron made his team mates better to but never had the talent Michael had around him, so making Antwaan Jamison better doesn't help your cause as much as making Scottie better. LeBron had less to work with and did more with it than Jordan. Michael had more to work with and made it unbeatable. If LeBron had some of the talent, running mates, and role players Mike did, the sky was the limit for the Cavs-That's again not for a lack of effort, its for a lack of results. Since the Cavs failed (tried but failed) to give him what he needed, he decided to get it himself.
He owed nothing to anyone.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Pippen was a player they were able to get lucky on in the draft. Many of the other players that played with Jordan turned out to be good players because they played with Jordan and never amounted to much else at all outside of playing with Michael Jordan. Those Bulls teams were constantly reshuffling and recycling players throughout Jordan's first 7 years as well. Jordan finally reached his peak and the Bulls won. LeBron hadn't yet peaked in Cleveland and did have a good enough team to win a title with had he stuck it out and/or not packed it in in the Boston series. The Cavs didn't have that true sidekick but they had a well built team for LeBron's last two seasons (especially if we would've gotten to see LeBron play a full season with Jamison as his stretch 4, as Jamison was still playing at a fringe all-star level at that point when the Cavs acquired him). That Cavs team was very deep and very good defensively. A team that wins 60 games is not a bad team. Based on what you're saying, the only thing holding LeBron back from winning a title in Cleveland was the talent around him. Why then in his first year in Miami was he unable to cakewalk to a championship with other HOF caliber players around him? He came up short and shrank himself that first year in Miami just like he did his last year in Cleveland. The following year he was absolutely amazing. There's no doubt that if you put that LeBron on the '09-'10 Cavs they would've won the title. He's even better this year. He's probably going to be even better next year. He's incredible. He would have won titles with Cleveland.
Cleveland did try-they failed.
LeBron went to the team that had his sidekick and the NBA is living under his foot as long as he and Wade are together. He never got that in Cleveland. Not for lack of effort but for lack of results. Shame on him for going to the place that gave him the best chance to win....
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Hey, I don't deny he's on to a better team. This team he's on right now is better than anything Jordan ever had without a doubt. I don't, however, find it endearing to quit when the going gets tough to go try to take a cakewalk to not one, not two, not three, etc. I'm not saying I can't understand why one would take off. He was on the brink with Cleveland and would have won in Cleveland. The team he's got in South Beach absolutely should have the NBA under its foot. I'm fine with that. I'm excited at what the Cavs are building themselves and hopefully will be able to organically build something to the level of what OKC currently has.
f it bothers you that much,do not spend your money in any way,shapr or form;no jerseys,no tickets,no PSLs,do not pay for any type of sports on television.remove the money which comforts them deprive them of the adulation they crave,and cease to deify these genetic lottery freaks,and this will no longer be an issue.if you give them the attention they crave,it will always annoy and frustrate you.
On the subject of "Cleveland didn't give LeBron anything," first, it's important to realize that the major mistakes there were made at the end of Jim Paxson's tenure as GM, both in the years just before and the two years after James was drafted. They were in the lottery in LeBron's first 2 years in the league. The first year they drafted Luke Jackson, who got injured almost immediately and hadn't shown much even before that. The second year, they panicked and traded their pick (still assuming they would make the playoffs, except they didn't) for a scrub who had no present and no future. LeBron was pretty much the only thing they did well in the draft over about a 6-year stretch.
So the key mistakes had already been made even before Dan Gilbert and Danny Ferry came on board. Once they were winning enough to be out of the lottery, their choices were 1) come up with a star outside the lottery like the Spurs did with Parker and the Celtics with Rondo--this is way easier said than done-- or 2) get a star to do for them what LeBron did for Miami -- sign at less than his market value for a chance at a ring.
A potential third option -- trade a lot of young guys for an expensive big star a la the Garnett trade -- couldn't happen because of the draft errors I mentioned above; the Cavs never had those young guys to deal. And they had trouble signing free agents because LeBron wouldn't commit to Cleveland for the long term. Cleveland's perceived status as a dump didn't help; Dwyane Wade was asked if he ever would have considered joining LeBron on a superteam in Cleveland instead of the other way around, and he just laughed. That's something they're just going to have to live with, but that also helps to explain the hurt when James left: people assumed that he was the one star that would never leave them, because it was home.
One last point in what's already been a long reply: it's not like the Cavaliers were just struggling along when James chose to leave. They had been the best regular season team in the NBA in consecutive seasons. I know what some people will say: the postseason is different and the Cavs didn't have a playoff-ready roster. But in truth, teams that win as much as the Cavaliers did in the regular season usually do well in the playoffs too. I believe the Cavs were the first NBA team since the 1970s to win 60 games in consecutive years and not make the NBA finals in either year. So their fans have the right to feel that James underachieved on his way out of town.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
I've never been a Cavs fan, but I really enjoyed seeing the Cavs do really well while Lebron played for them. With that said, I can not fault the guy for wanting to leave Cleveland and play ball with his boys in South Beach Miami. Let me say that again, South Beach Miami! I would've left just based on the destination.
He gave Cleveland 7 years and yeah he definitely gave up at the end, but I think that by that time he'd already made up his mind that he was not coming back. Lebron's exit was handled horribly which conceivably infuriated a better part of the fan base and the clubs ownership. All of their despise, disgust and hate I'm sure were not well received by Lebron. I would venture to say that he believes that he gave his all to the team and to the city. So to continue to hate on the man, all the haters are doing is giving the man fuel. A competitor like Lebron thrive off the hate, it pushes them to be greater. The reality is that Lebron has placed Cleveland Cavs and it's fans into the bitter rival category, albeit warranted or not, Cleveland fans just haven't figured that out yet. Every time this man plays Cleveland he's going to show out.
I'm not surprised one bit that Lebron would act that way after coming back from down 27. Question is would you give a damn if it were a team other than the Cavs that he did this to?
“The minute we stop expecting greatness from our football program, we become Wisconsin.” Craig Krenzel
You can't really prove that by Miami's last several games against the Cavs, though: 3 wins by a combined total of 9 points, the last one when the Cavs were missing 3 starters.
What's all this about what a great competitor LeBron is? I think you're confusing him with Michael Jordan. Look what happened when he got punched in the nose in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, and 2011. Especially in 2011--he didn't "thrive off the hate;" he shrank in response to it.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
I don't think point margin in a Win or a Loss defines whether Lebron see's the Cavs as a bitter rival, so I'm missing the point of your argument. Heck the way i see it, a win is a win, but a win over a bitter rival = Priceless no matter what the point margin.
I never compared Lebron to MJ, but only time will tell how great he will be. The sports media is infatuated with making the comparisons between the two which I think is premature. But to say that Lebron isn't a competitor that just sounds like sour grapes.
I can see that you've selectively excluded Lebron's 2012 season and the current season where he has gone on a terror. Some folks are hard to impress, I guess averaging 28 pts a game are chump statistics.
But the truth is in the pudding, we will see what happens when playoff time comes and we'll see if he shrinks like you say. I personally think you'll be adding another year to your omit list.
“The minute we stop expecting greatness from our football program, we become Wisconsin.” Craig Krenzel
Thanks for bumping the thread after it was finally out of sight.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
Lol my bad, no mas! Got it!
“The minute we stop expecting greatness from our football program, we become Wisconsin.” Craig Krenzel
Selectively excluded? OK, after failing in 3 straight seasons where his team was the favorite to win the NBA championship, I give LeBron all the credit in the world for not massively choking that fourth time. Hope that's enough genuflecting for you!
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
I'm a big cavs fan n love kyrie but they need to retire #23. Lbj is the greatest cav ever. No question
O'Deez330
stark county football
My only comment on this topic: I don't want to see him go back to Cleveland in 2014 and have both sides act like nothing happened.
The luxury tax next season is going to make things crazy though.
"Don't put syrup on shit, and tell me it's pancakes"
No matter how sh*tty the tour is, it's always tough to leave.
I hope he taunts Cavs fans every chance he gets. Never seen such a butthurt fan base... You should be thankful he stayed as long as he did.
"Do not pray for an easy life. Rather, pray for the the strength to endure a difficult one" - Bruce Lee
i have learned to tolerate lebron. if we had grown up in his situation, we'd be lucky to be as (relatively) classy. let's face it: he's still less arrogant than mj, kobe, shaq, and most other hof'ers of the last 20 years.
plus, he's actually kind of funny if you look at some of his stuff objectively.
i'm not saying i'd want him to marry my daughter, but that he's not as evil as i used to believe, i guess.
I'm not sure if I read this right. I must be half asleep.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
I was born in Cleveland. We lost the Browns when Modell moved them. We lost 60% of our population when the housing market and economy crashed. And yes we lost Lebron too. Our city was beat to hell. But we're coming back because we're tough SOB's.
I personally have had a much easier life than Lebron. Probably most people have. He grew up impoverished and recently had his biological father sue him for ....uuuhhhh.... being his father.
As much as I like sports I really don't devote everything (whatever that means) to any one player, OR any one person for that matter.
I get that you are bitter about him leaving. But may I suggest you put the scorned tone down for a minute and gain some perspective? How long was Lebron supposed to stay in a market that could never afford to put together a championship team? Would you have forgone your dreams of an NBA championship just to say you played in Cleveland your whole life? What is this the 1950's and Rocky Colavito?
I'm happy for him and happy that he is on the way to becoming one of the great legends of the NBA. Ohio born, he'll always be.
Lebron moved on, why can't you?
"There is a force that makes us all brothers, no one goes his way alone, all that we send into the life of others comes back into our own." -WWH
As much as i hated to see lebron leave, we all have rights to pursue employment wherever.
I've lived in Florida for a long time. A couple decades now. I took the heat as my team in the mid nineties. I've gone to see numerous games, the first in 95. In 2006, I watched them win their first Championship. I certainly understand that The Decision was not Lebron's most shining moment, but I was thrilled he was coming here. It might not make me popular, but I love the The Heat & love what Lebron brings. When The Heat play The Cavs, I admit I'm a little torn, even though I was never a Cavs fan (just a good Ohioan), but in the end, I was happy with the outcome of the game...& I didn't think he was taunting per se, just pumped to keep the streak going. That was my take as a Heat fan anyways...
The world is full of kings & queens who'll blind your eyes & steal your dreams - it's heaven & hell - Ronnie James Dio.