This team is lifeless and uninspired.
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Can't coaching bring life, inspiration, and motivation to a team? That's kind of the reason why I love Coach Coombs so much is because he gets his players psyched up... I'm not quite following your post all that well.
Whoever down voted my comment, please explain why. I don't want to make the same mistake twice. Thanks
I don't know that I'd call them lifeless and uninspired in the first place. In fact, I really feel like they play their asses off for the most part...they just aren't offensively skilled enough to consistently outscore teams. If anything it's not making shots or just making bad mistakes. I certainly wouldn't say that they appear to not care or are slacking on the floor. Also, for what it's worth I was unable to watch the Wisconsin game so maybe there was something I missed today. I watch those guards work their asses off on the perimeter and have put in some great defensive performances.
The players have all noted that they practice extremely well and work much harder in practice than teams previous. The coaching staff is working this team. They just aren't good enough offensively to consistently put up points. That's why they aren't winning as much as we'd like them to. Not because they aren't trying. Again, I didn't get to see today's game.
Yeah...they got out hustled on just about every loose ball..no position for defensive rebounds...and played very uninspired defense.
Even if they had played better D they still would have lost because no one can make a jump shot..Hell..I'd even be happy if someone other than Deshawn could finish a layup!!! pretty bad yesterday, maybe it's best you didn't see it. One of those soul crushing losses that makes me wish it was the end of August.
Fair enough. I really can't comment on last yesterday's game. Agreed, probably best I didn't see it.
this is a reflexion of coaching tho
"lifeless and uninspired"
So you're saying the problem is the coaching.
Bingo
They seem content with who they are....but the thing that really bothers me is that the one thing Matta's teams have always done is play defense, and they are not right now. Good teams don't get blown out two out of three games.
Exactly! Content with who they are and not who they can be.
Coaching is only part of the equation here. A coach can only do some much for a team. There has to execution involved on the part of the players as well.
+1
Matta can't do anything about turnovers (LaQ), bad shots (Craft, Scott), lack of fight (Williams), and shots not falling (whole team). Someone needs to step up to help Thomas, and so far nobody has. Sure he can bench some of the starters to send a message, but who else can he call on? Only options I can think of is start Della Valle (but is his defense good enough?) and McDonald for Williams.
I actually think Thomas is part of the problem.
Please explain.
Two parts to my theory - the first being how Thomas plays defense - he doesn't. The team mantra is defense but not for Thomas. It's kind of like one of these things is not like the others. It breaks up the team. The second part is that the offense appears designed to go through Thomas, which makes others on the team feel a bit less than appreciated. They have to work their tails off on defense but have to get the ball to the slacker on offense. It's hypothetical, but in a game where team chemistry is such a big deal, and where our team seems to lack this, there's got to be a reason behind it. I do think there's a clear lack of leadership, but maybe there's more to it.
First of all, I think we can all agree that our team's problem is not defense. Secondly, maybe the ball goes through him on offense because he is the only player on our team who can score. I actually think that the player who woul benefit the most by having decent offensive players around him is Scott. The amount of times he has set up a teammate with a great look, only to have them pass it up or throw up a brick is ridiculous. Hopefully Loving and Williams can give us some help in that area next season.
Mark Titus actually summed up a huge problem with this team a while back. He said in his time at OSU, Matta would call a timeout and not say a word because guys like Lighty among other leaders would say everything that needed to be said. This team lacks a true leader that can take the team when they're in a slump and pull them out of it. Not with scoring (Thomas) or defense (Craft), but this team needs a vocal leader who's not afraid to get in someone's face
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
I think you (Titus) hit the nail on the head.
I've seen Craft in multiple faces this year...
When somebody does something wrong, Craft will pull them aside and nicely tell them what to do next time. I love AC as a player, but in all reality he is too nice to his teammates on the court to be the leader this team needs. What this team needs is a guy who when nothing is going our way (like today), he will pull the entire team aside and just lay into them. Not just scream at them, but a leader who can inspire the team.
Sometimes it takes more than just your play on the court to inspire others.
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
Again, I've seen him in faces. I don't see him saying, "Oh, you'll get it next time. You're the top scorer in the country! I have so much faith in you and I love you so much..." He has appeared to be quite pissed off at his teammates in multiple games. I have seen him going off and I'm sure you have too...
Amazing how some people get it and some don't.
Coaching isn't the problem at all. Thad is usin more bench this year than ever. And his offensive schemes continue to get his guys open looks. We just can't execute anything!
This is seriously the point. We had multiple semi-contested layup opportunities today that the guys bricked off the back iron and open 3's missed.
The point of the post is to get everyone's attention off the easiest topics of finger pointing, essentially the every bad game cop-outs. It's not Mattas fault that these guys aren't into the game. You can't make people interested in things. Mattas job is to make his players better, but if they aren't interested in it, then what? I'm sorry but it seemed like no one on this team has an interest in effort - they just want people give it to them.
Clearly the problem is Luke Fickell AKA the scourge of Ohio State coaching.
(Presumably you all kow I am kidding)
Not that improved effort isn't needed, but I can't understand thinking that talent is not a HUGE problem here. We had a 5-person sophomore class where only one player has a legit B1G offensive game. And it was the coaches that decided to recruit them, so they're not off the hook.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
So we should expect sophomores to be playing at the NBA level when if they were at that level they'd be in the NBA? Or should we be expecting this coaching staff to recruit players that don't leave early for the NBA? Or maybe we'd all be happy with 2 and 3 star recruits? No. I get it. It's the coaching staff. This staff has never taken us to the final four or a championship game. They don't have what it takes to develop players.
There are sophomores competing at a high level ALL OVER college basketball. You're throwing out enough straw men to turn 11W into a fire hazard.
Look, this is a mediocre team that's getting worse. Getting mad at me won't change that one bit.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
I'm not getting mad at you. I'm frustrated with you, moreso, your opinion that opinion about our talent, for sure though. Think of your expectations for these kids in their first real season at this level. Ive watched the team play extremely well at times, inconsistently though. I think this team is better than mediocre. I don't think they will win it all. It's a young team that's missing something, but its not talent and its not coaching. I think it's a team chemistry issue. I get frustrated when our fan base takes a half assed view on our team and blames the players or the coaches. It's an easy way out and it's not a solution. It's ok to be a good team that doesn't win a championship. I think we're a good team, with serious team problems. It's not a player problem, its not a talent problem, its not a coaching problem, but its a team thing. It's an "IT" factor that we haven't developed.
How can you make the argument that talent is not a problem on this team? We have two kids who can score, and one of them barely plays. We are completely incapable of executing in the half court, and we do not have a functional big man. We are absolutely not a talented basketball team.
Totally agree with Chuck. Biggest problem is that they're just not that good. Outside of Thomas, there's a lot of physical ability and very little in the way of skills. Craft can't shoot, so (smart) teams back off of him and let him take open 12-footers, which he misses most of the time. Smith is a good spot-up three-point shooter, but has basically no handle, so teams just get in his face and prevent spot-up looks and he becomes next to worthless. Thompson can jump really high and that's about it; limit OSU's transition opportunities and he disappears from the game. Williams just looks like he doesn't know what he's doing; you can tell he probably just feasted on smaller guys at the high school level without actually having to learn how to play basketball. Scott is great at all the little things a PG should do (and, IMO, should be getting more minutes), but he can't shoot a lick. Ross can hit open threes and slash a little, but he's a turnover waiting to happen and he is apparently incapable of making a GD layup. Ravenel works hard but appears to be almost totally unskilled. Everyone is clamoring for more minutes for McDonald and Della Valle, but that's mostly because they haven't played enough for us to watch them screw up that often.
Talent/skill is the issue, not some amorphous, mystical notion of "heart" or "leadership." Is some of that on the coaches, for overlooking these issues in the recruiting phase, or failing to develop the physical tools available? Probably. But there's only so much coaches can do. Matta can't physically go out there and change Craft's shooting motion, or grab Williams while a shot is in the air and force him to box out for once in his freaking life.
IMHO, is it me or does it seem like Thad's just generally not that good of an offensive coach? I mean he's excellent defensively & character wise, especially with coaching perimeter D, rotations, etc.
However, as far as running offensive sets or plays out of time outs to get guys looks is just plainly sub-par & really has been for a while. His best sets have been able to get his best players the ball in ISO situations, but we can't win when only one guy is a consistent threat.
I think we have a great blend of talent & coaching, but not the right blend.
Guys don't have defined roles outside of Thomas & Craft (which are both more or less one-dimensional). But we don't have all the kind of talent we need, a facilitator who can create for others, another guy who can create his own shot, knock down spot up shooters, & a true dominant big that WANTS the ball & to own the paint, guys who just show hard on switches, set hard screens , & take charges...
Right now, it seems as if more we just have guys who the athleticism & size to play basketball but not basketball players.
Like it kills me looking at some of these smaller programs who have guys who can really play the game, but just may not have the depth or team talent to really win on a consistent basis. It makes me wonder like - dang how are we missing these kids? Not guys who are the best talent, but guys who work hard & play the game with heart, determination, & fearlessness.
Could some of that be blamed on a coach? Absolutely, but this is just a perfect storm of the "BLAH" that has been the Big Ten Basketball season from a consistency standpoint.
"Leave...Your...Mark..."
You and I are pretty close in opinion. I will say that I think Thad tailors his team to his players because our offense was fine in past years. I think the problem this year is with the players, but not with talent , with chemistry. I wonder if Thomas is a big draw on this.
I think your opinion is pretty common among college basketball fans across the country, not just Ohio State. Where I live now the local sports radio show seems like it could be covering OSU basketball just with different names.
I don't buy (too much) into the theory about the talent pool being dried up because guys leaving early for the draft. It has some credence, but doesn't explain everything. For one it seems worse now than 3 or 4 years ago. And it didn't seem this bad when players could skip college. Maybe another part of it is that players are expected to mature and develop earlier.
To me, it seems like players just aren't as well polished. They are as athletic as ever, probably more so. That could make it more difficult to score, I guess. However, it seems rare to see a team with more than a couple players that have a well rounded offensive game. Take Amir Williams for example. Does he have any post game at all? If not could he at least have a decent baseline jumper? Sam Thompson seems like one of the most gifted athletes I've seen, but there's nothing more to his offensive game. Craft has one of the ugliest shots I've ever seen, and this year it looks worse than the last two.
I used to play AAU ball on a team that was fundamentally strong and could shoot from outside but that was it, no size, no talent, no exceptional skill. We would dismantle undisciplined or lazy teams that had way more talent than us. That's what this game reminded me of (at least the first half, I didn't watch the whole second). OSU has one almost limitless scorer, so everybody waits for him to do something. They have one guy who can jump out of the gym, so they waste time setting up alley-oops for him. Then they run up against a team that is fundamentally sound and plays in a system and they get crushed.
I used to get frustrated with Q always trying to drive to the middle and ending up turning it over or committing a charge. As I was watching him today (I think he did both), it occurred to me that he almost has to try because nothing else is happening, but also that he is doomed because there is zero reason for the defense to spread out. There is no outside threat on this team and there is no inside threat. On top of that, they have no system. Like someone said around here earlier, they have played Michigan well because they play street ball. This team is going to get crushed by fundamental, well-coached teams on most days.
We don't have the guns this year. The offense was #1 in the country with Sully/Diebler/Buford and pretty close with Turner/Diebler/Buford. Craft understands the offense but isn't a spectacular offensive player/playmaker. He does lots of other things on an elite level though. Lenzelle Smith is our #2 scorer. We have several guys who have elite talent in some areas but big holes in other areas. For most of the guys it is on the offensive end that these holes show up. His system is based on getting favorable switches/mis-matches. The problem is unless it is Deshaun on a little guy or center then it isn't really that great of a mis-match. We could do a bit more to get guys catches coming off pindowns or backdoor cuts but a lot of these guys have trouble catching the ball in traffic and finishing.
so we have the comment section of the post game piece and a forum about basketball frustration and now this? WHY? i want to throw out a hypothetical situation here, if the football team loses the national championship next year, we will still talk more about that team than if osu WON the tournament this year
You are free to comment on anything you'd like but no one forced to come here. You are also free to create your post about any curcumstance youd wish to talk about. Some of us are fans of everything and anything that is Ohio State. Today was a frustrating day for those people, myself included. Therefore I created this forum to talk about my frustration with our team. As evidenced by my number of posts on this topic, you can tell that I'm enjoying myself. I encourage you to find something else that you like more.
Talent is absolutely part of the problem.
Amir Williams, Sam Thompson, Lenzelle Smith and LaQuinton Ross have not lived up to their billing or even become moderately, consistely productive role players. Each of them has had their moments but NONE of them can be counted upon game in and game out.
Evan Ravenel is a transfer from Boston College.
Aaron Craft is very limited offensively in a half-court game.
Shannon Scott has been inconsistent and can't shoot.
That leaves Deshaun Thomas as our one players who is living up to his talent level.
That's a talent problem.
But these guys are SOOOOO young. We've been pretty spoiled with young talent. However young talent that is good enough moves on. So maybe these guys aren't conleys, odens, or sullingers, I'm ok with that. But what if they are lightys or dieblers or Bufords?
Hope you're right. We'll know for sure next year.
me too..... was looking a lot better about 1.5 weeks ago. Here's to hope.
These kids are SOFTMORES. At what point are people going to stop making excuses for them not living up to their potential?
Amedeo was the leading scorer on Italy's U18 team at the Euro championships. Dude, knows how to play and position himself, especially on offense. He shot 50% from 3 in that tournament. We need to be getting this guy at least 10 minutes a game.
Talent and coaching have everything to do with wins a loses.
The coach has to get his players ready to play (that's his job)
The player were brought in because the had a set of skills thought to be good enough to compete at the D1 level and championship level.
These kids do not pocess those kinds of talents (at the present time)
They've got heart for sure but heart alone doesn't win championship.
You need shot makers.
The ball has to go into the hoop to score points and to win games.
I think heart is a major thing that is lacking.
Deshaun Thomas agrees
http://videos.cleveland.com/plain-dealer/2013/02/deshaun_thomas_after_oh...
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
Agree. With that said, if the players aren't bringing it, the heart needs to start on the bench with our coaches. Time for the assistants to STEP UP!
Chris Jent was one of the most fiery, intense, never-quit competitors to ever play here. Have his players seen this side of him. You're not managing NBA guys, Chris...light these guys up. These guys are not pros and they're obviously not self-motivated.
You too, Coach Boals! Time to bring the heat.
JUICE can be served up outside the WHAC.
Home court advantage, crowd into it, some terrific effort to go with great execution...add it all together and you can get destroyed especially if you're not at the top of your game. It happens to teams in every sport at every age level. This team has issues, but what 4-6 NCAA potential seed doesn't? They're still dangerous and when they get to the tournament (s) they can still catch fire. Let's all try to be more optimistic about them.
So this thread is saying that the coaching doesn't "matta"?
Haaa
I'll be here all week. Tip your bartenders.
LOLz
I still believe this is a good team. Hard when Wisconsin shoots over 50% from field. The BIG & NCAA tournament are just around the corner & we need the offense, defense & coaching to improve.
Could be worse....
Our honor Defend!
hahaha
http://buckeyextra.dispatch.com/content/blogs/hoops-and-scoops/2013/02/0...
It's very easy for me to sit here on my couch and say I would have been ready to play if given talent enough to play D1 basketball. I also know college kids are jerked 48 different ways on any given day and though OSU football and basketball are pretty close to professional teams they're still a bunch of teens / 20-somethings. The exciting part is to see how they react vs Minnesota and in the next few weeks. I'm sure Thad will have them more focused and the team will be on alert.
I have coached at the youth level for years and can say this is not about the coaching. Leadership from a player is huge and the best teams always have at least one key guy who does that. Without it you get a lot of what we are seeing here. Thad's style is not going to suddenly change, but he is going to have to find a way to change some of the team's mentality. Wisky got hot but when we are missing the shots we were that's all mental. I still have faith in Matta and this is the way it goes at times.
Are you kidding me? So it's not Matta's fault, huh? He is not ultimately responsible for the results on the court? He is not responsible for having them ready to play? I love the "well Wisconsin shot well" rationale. Everyone says we need additional scorers but what exactly does Matta do to put them into a position to succeed?
All I see are passes around the perimeter until someone decides to either jack up a shot or take his guy off the dribble. They have the most simplistic offense I've ever seen at the collegiate level. I watch team after team setting screens, moving without the ball, etc. The whole "we need a second scorer to emerge" is a biproduct of this one-on-one offense. Not only is this ridiculous, but the excuses are as well.
If we are classifying ridiculous, perhaps we should put your expectations into that category as well. Did you watch the offense last year? Did it occur to you that maybe this is Matta playing to his teams' strengths?
I'm sorry I hate Bo Ryan but if he had the same players as osu they wouldn't be so under developed....he takes mediocre players and makes them better every time......it's almost as if matta and staff were too keen on keeping their system rather than change the offense to fit the guys on the team.......we have a guy who can soar and get up around the rim and yet we set up plays for him ath the 3pt line hm? wrong.....why not have thomas set a back screen and have the option of thompson or deshaun after the screen on one side of the floor.....we haven't seen it all year and i thought of it the second sam started dunking and getting to the rim early in the year?????? coaches are too stubborn to admit their system won't work for this team and are trying to shove it down the players throats.....wouldn't be suprised if this team gets beat like when we lost to Siena not to long ago in the tournament
Any idea how experienced the players on his roster are?
News flash: Wisconsin is a tough place to win and blowouts happen. Is Michigan a bad team because they got blown out at Michigan State? This team doesn't pass the eye test but if you look at the truth (i.e. numbers) underneath it all, we have a top 20 team. Sure not top 5 like the preseason rankings, but a team that will be a tough out in the tournament. The people that say we are mediocre don't appreciate how good Wisconsin, MSU, Michigan, Indiana and Minnesota are this year. 6 of the top 20 in the country play in the Big ten and maybe we are the 6th of those who knows but we don't suck. We would have 2 losses in the SEC right now.
I wasn't a member last season but i'd like to know how many of you were patting Thad on the back for getting the Bucks to the final 4?... This is the same coach folks. Did anybody not think the Bucks were gonna struggle after Sully declared for the NBA? Has anybody considered the fact that maybe passing the ball around and jacking a shot up or having Deshaun take someone one on one is about all they can do? Is it Matta's fault when Linzelle takes a wide open three and misses? With no inside presence on a consistent basis it means you have to settle for outside shots which is not this teams strong point. Having an inside presence to play off of would open up everything else.
Battles are sometimes won by generals; wars are nearly always won by sergeants and privates. Football is no different, the guys down in the trenches win the games, not the coach.
FWIW: Bo Ryan is 8-1 against OSU at home, now 9-1, I guess. So it's not like OSU is used to winning @ Wisconsin.
Problem is we recruited defensive players and none of them can score. Thomas is the only offensive player on the court and Q Ross can't get hot cuz he doesn't get many minutes. Lenzelle Smith is a bust. Craft has no offense. Thompson literally has no offense except for them dunks. Amir still needs to grow. Too many problems for the staff to fix. We've had the same staff that went to the Final 4, I'm sure it's the product on the court, and probably not very good recruiting by Matta.
I've seen times where easy putbacks are missed to easy layups missed. Taking too many shots from the perimeter. Team not very good at shooting FT's either.
This team NEEDS alot of work if they ever want to see another B1G Title again. The conference is just stacked.
I am really not buying the excuse that this team is unusually young, let alone too young to have any expectations for them.
* The Buckeyes are getting essentially no contribution from any freshman.
* Indiana's best player is a sophomore.
* Ditto Michigan.
* Michigan State has only one senior in a key role, Nix.
* Wisconsin is pretty veteran, not surprising considering that they're basically never in the mix for top 50 type players, but still, they have two underclassmen (Jackson and Dekker) who look better than any of our sophomores.
* Last but not least, I can think of one team that was younger than the 2012-13 Buckeyes and was still pretty effective: the 2011-12 Buckeyes, whose top five scorers were sophomore-sophomore-senior-sophomore-sophomore.
Having a team that's basically all sophomores and juniors--and our three best players are all juniors--is nothing that should be a program-killer.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
Right now this group seems to be regressing. After a high point in their overall play, in spite of a loss, against Michigan, they are going in the wrong direction. Listless play on defense, where they HAVE to makup the difference against a good team because of the lack of overall offensive ability.
Here's the problem, the guys giving major effort are the ones who cannot score (Craft, Scott, McDonald). I get everyone's love for Scott based on the fact he can make things happen, but if you were to grade him on every facet that makes up "putting the ball in the basket," he would definitely not get a passing grade. Jump shot, finishing at the basket, mid-range game, etc. All are miserable. Craft, lately, has been only a bit better.
This team needs to embrace the fact that defense is where they butter their bread. If they don't play inspired on the defensive end, they have no chance. Playing well on offense is icing on the cake. Yesterday, they played the worst I've seen on both ends. That can't happen on the defensive side. Defensive effort can be controlled each and every game. Shots can rim out, or just not seem to go in - you can't always help that. However, you can help the effort given on defense.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"