First of all this team isn't the most beautiful thing to step foot on the hardwood. And yes they are frustrating. But I find the overall negativity shown on this site toward this basketball program to be simply absurd. Coach Matta is in the mist of the 2nd greatest run in the history of this program. Buckeye basketball was never UCLA, Kentucky, Carolina, Kansas, or Duke.....actually it wasn't EVEN CLOSE. Now for the first time since the early 60's we are considered a top 10 program by anyone that pays attention to college basketball. Thad Matta has done ALL OF THIS!! The Big Ten championships (regular season and conf tournaments). We are trying to get to the Sweet 16 for the 4th time in a row, which would make that accomplishment THE FIRST TIME IN PROGRAM HISTORY it has happened. This team is flawed no doubt, and yes the development of some players (Ross, Amir) is slower than we would like. But he has set a standard not yet seen in the Modern Era of Ohio State hoops and I believe in the foundation he has laid. I remember this message board blowing up last February on how this team had fallen apart and Matta "couldn't win" (anyone who says anything similar should be IMMEDIATELY discredited). And he rallied the troops to a great Final Four run. Lets let the rest of the season play out and support/encourage our GREAT coach/kids. I know we care, so that's why the passion and emotion fills the game posts. But lets take a breath and realize it's January.....this season can still bring much joy and reason to celebrate.
As always.......GO BUCKS!!!
Thad Motta created the monster .... now he's gotta feed the monster
Or even Thad Matta
It's got to be easier than feeding B Hoke
Spelling jokes aside, your point is valid: Once you've established a reputation for competing at a high level, as Matta has, people then expect you to continue performing at that level. And ideally, they expect you to continue improving. That expectation may not be fair, but as you put it, Matta created the expectation by winning at a high level.
But at the same time, anyone that follows Ohio State Bball knew this team wouldn't be the same after losing both Sullinger and Buford. No team in the BigTen lost as much as Ohio State did.
It has been disappointing that Amir, and Ross aren't playing like we expected, but the season isn't over yet.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
Agreed on all counts. But who says fans are logical creatures?
Good point.
That is probably why we're starting to see more and more 1 and done coaches in sports. People are way too impatient. Just look at the Lakers situation. Had the stuck it out with MB, they might be in a better spot.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
There is no doubt that our "attention span" is shrinking when it comes to coaching "success." How long was it after the 2002 Championship that we started hearing people calling for Tressel's head? I look at this the same way: there were definitely things to criticize about The Vest's style and strategy, but the overall results were pretty amazing. There are definitely things about Matta's style and strategy worth picking apart, but the overall arc of his tenure is a good thing.
Yeah, I remember after the Purdue loss I heard people on Dave & Jimmy(back when I listened to it) saying JT should be fired, and Bauserman should replace Pryor..... The last part still makes me laugh.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
Buckeyevstheworld:
This is a good reason why Buckeye fans shouldn't be surprised that this team is struggling, but it doesn't give a pass to the coaching staff.
Personally, I'm willing to cut Matta lots of slack. Some top-level, championship-winning programs have been up-and-down at times over the last 10+ years, with talent cycling in and out of the program - UNC, Duke, Kentucky, Syracuse, Arizona, etc. Few programs have been as consistent as Kansas.
And, obviously, this Buckeyes team still has a chance to improve.
But a mediocre season is a mediocre season whether it's expected or not. During the Randy Ayers and Jim O'Brien eras, it wouldn't have been any consolation to say midway during one of those seasons, "hey, we knew they were gonna suck, anyway. Therefore, it's okay." It wasn't okay.
If we're going to call being ranked in the top 20 a mediocre season then we need to be prepared to be disappointed a little bit more and lower our expectations. The bottom line is the players are young and didn't get dramatically better and some guys from last year don't appear to be able to step up. So, it is what is, we're not a bad team, we're a good team with a very high ceiling that in all probability won't be hit this year.
Very well said. I'm not sure Run_Fido was definitively saying this is a mediocre season - I hope not. But, that is what I, and many others, are hearing much more of from the basketball "faithful," if you can call them that.
This team has limitations. We talk about how they can't shoot, can't rebound, can't score... They're lazy, turn the ball over too much, can't make free throws... And yet they are 14-4, ranked in the top 15 in the best conference in CBB, and still have TONS of potential to get better. They beat the #2 team on their home court, would have beaten the #1 team on the road (something approximately 100 straight other non-conference opponents have not done) if not for a horrific shooting night, and hung tough against the #3 team (who I honestly believe to be the best in the country right now) while again shooting terribly.
They are young. They are improving. What is the one thing Thad Matta-coached teams always are at the end of the season going into the conference and NCAA tournaments? Better, and prepared to make a run. This team will be no different.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
OldColumbustown: you make one of the better "rosy" arguments for this team I've seen. If I keep reading comments from you, my optimism will grow.
My main issue with this team - which I admit lost some awesome pieces, especially Sully - is that they turn the ball over and don't seem to have a killer instinct at times.
I'd be just fine with the scoring struggles, by themselves. Maybe I wouldn't like it, but I'd happy to live with it . . . but I can't understand how the likes of Craft, Scott and L. Smith turn the ball over like they do. With that ballhandling, there is no excuse.
And, then, it annoys me that Amir Williams won't catch the f'in ball when it's thrown into him and occasionally jam the f'in ball so hard into the next that anyone who tries to block it loses a digit. I don't care if Amir averages 7 or 8 points a game (right now, he's averaging 4.3) and only takes 3-4 shots a night (he's averaging 2.3), but when he needs to treat the ball and his opponents with malicious intent, for f's sake.
Do that stuff and I can live with the rest of it . . .
Listen, I'm not all gung-ho about this team. There are legitimate issues that they must correct and/or improve if they want to get anywhere near their potential.
#1 is Amir Williams. I'm completely with you there. He has hands of stone, and when he does actually get two hands on it, continues to drop the ball down to and below his waist. I've never seen a big man have the ball stripped or knocked away directly at the rack so many times in my life.
TO's are the other thing, and it has mostly just crept up here the past 4-5 games. Now that I think about it, it has essentially coincided with the start of conference season. I don't know if it is Scott/Craft/Smith pressing and trying to make more things happen with a limited offensive squad, or if the B1G coaches have struck again and have so well-scouted OSU that they are getting them in positions where they tend to be more free with the ball. Either way, it is something else that is a problem.
Even with all that, I choose to be optimistic. Otherwise, why put myself through the misery of watching?
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
The only 2 things I take issue with in the 2 posts above is the characterization that they are lazy (they are not*) and that L Smith turns the ball over. He doesn't.
*Craft's turnovers the past 8-10 games have been "lazy". He no longer penetrates consistently and puts arc on what I'll call skip passes on the perimeter. Scott either lacks a feel for the game or is too amped up to execute -- I'd say a little of both, but his turnovers are due to his being overly ambitious to create "big" plays. Likewise Ravenal's turnovers are from being over excited/out of control.
A Williams just has medium hands, and often does not know where he is on the court.
Cannot put my finger on LQ Ross still, but think it is some combo of not letting the game come to him, not knowing the situation and, gulp, real medium hands
OptimisticBuck: in my comment above, I explictly mentioned that this team had a chance to get better and hence was not yet assuming that this season will necessarily end up being mediocre. But that does appear to be the current trajectory.
And by mediocre, of course, I mean by the high standards Matta has created at Ohio State. When a top 10 program like Ohio State goes, say, 21-10 and loses in the first two rounds of the NCAA tournament, that's mediocre.
As others have mentioned above, expecting your team to live up to such high standards might be harsh, but it goes with territory. Jim O'Brien lasted seven years at Ohio State while going 133-88 and rarely recruiting high-level talent. He stayed around partly by lowering everyone's expectations.
I know you did and I was merely stating the current case and where we end up is completely debatable and all depends on the development of the team. 21-10 in the B1G this year isn't bad and would probably put us around 4/5 seed. Knowing what we know about our team, a cold shooting night by DT could put us out of the tournament at any round. I refuse to be disappionted by that.
@RFR:
I'm not saying it does. But as "mediocre" as Ohio State has looked, they've had a chane to win every game, but one. That's why i'm willing to be patient.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
THANK YOU GOLDEN! How soon we forget - I too share your frustration, thanks for putting it so well. The older I get the less I can digest constant negativity. Bravo!
This team isn't going anywhere without a real post player. Ravenel is a good guy off the bench. He isn't going to hurt the team, but he also isn't going to be the difference down the stretch. This makes Amir Williams lack of development so frustrating. I think the guy has a bunch of talent, but he plays softer and more passive than any big man I have watched in years. He can't block everything. At some point, he needs to get physical on both ends of the court. If Thad can light a fire under him (and maybe teach him about how to position himself for a rebound or two), there still may be hope.
ernie
There are just more football fans than basketball. I try to watch because its the Buckeyes but I personally do not care for basketball. I think there are a lot of people who just don't care for the sport, basketball is down there with golf in viewers. Ohio is a football state, I support all forms of basketball but only a few people I know follow B ball, but everyone follows football.
Wherever you are, there you be!
I don't know about baskeball=golf is accurate, but I do agree that Ohio State is largely considered a "football school." When you think of the traditional roundball powerhouses (UNC, Duke, UConn, Syracuse, Indiana, Kentucky), none of them have a football team to rival Ohio State, so perhaps it makes some amount of sense where fans' loyalties lie.
Still, it was really disappointing last night to see how many empty seats there were in the Schott.
imo, if ross and amir ever start playing up to their potential, this buckeye squad will go a long ways. imo thad is a very good coach.
If they play to what we believe their potential is, Ohio State is a lock for the Final Four.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
I agree their potential is a FF team, but that whole "lock" status is where we differ.
There were several "discussions" pertaining to Matta on this site recently, with certain people feeling as though Matta has not done enough yet to be considered a great coach, and just a general sense that he has underachieved at times. This is where the "football-school" philosophy goes haywire - basketball is a much different sport, with much more parity, and it is much, much harder to live up to a certain reputation or potential every year during the tournament.
The one-and-done scenario makes basketball so much harder to predict the outcome. Getting to the FF is quite an accomplishment in and of itself. It means you essentially won a 16 team tournament against many other high-quality teams. This isn't football where you get placed in a position to win a championship based on your regular season, and then you just need to win that one game to make it complete. So many factors go in to making it to the FF, and many depend on things you cannot necessarily control.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
Yea, like the one year where we were head and shoulders the best team in the country, depsite getting the #1 overall seed, got placed in a powerhouse of a bracket, met UK in the sweet sixteen and then had a 33% shooting effort. Any given game...
Exactly.
That OSU team may have been the best overall college team of the past 5 years (right up therre with last year's UK team). They had every piece imaginable - dominant post player and rebounder (Sully), shot blocker/defender in the post (DL), multi-faceted defender and scorer (Lighty), lights out 3-point shooter (Diebler), slashing swingman with a sweet stroke (Buford), best defensive PG of his generation as well as perfect game manager (Craft), and lastly a microwave offensive talent off the bench (DT). Whew.
How could they lose? They have everything. They defend, they are the most efficient offensive team in the counry, they rebound, they don't turn it over... only they ran into a perfectly bad matchup against them, and shot like the lights had been turned off.
That is the epitome of college basketball.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
This is what happens when you lose a great post player...they're still ok...they're just not as good as they were last two years. I think now many can see how instrumental Sully was to OSU BBall team for the two years he played.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
So we're not a title contender this year. I think we all recognized that with all the holes present on the roster. And while there are some potential worries in the horizon (Indiana and scUM's resurgence, potential lack of impact recruiting) Matta has done a fantastic job and has earned the benefit of the doubt. I'm perfectly happy with our down/rebuilding year being a top-20 team and an NCAA tourney berth.
I'd say those potential worries are pretty significant worries--big enough so that you have to wonder if Matta has taken the program as far as he's going to be able to take it.
It's one thing to have a relative offseason, and I agree that most saw it coming. But the concern is last year's team was a little worse than the 2010-11 team (leaving aside that we went farther in March); this year's team is worse than last year's team; and given that we're likely losing our only proven scorer, next year's team will probably be worse than the current team. This isn't really a trend you like to see.
Too much time away from the top level makes it that much harder to get back. Matta has to prove he can keep us at or near the top in an environment where Michigan and Indiana are strong, and without the benefit of an All-American type talent from Columbus. It must be said that the jury is out in that regard, and posts like the one up top that try to dictate what people say and believe here won't change any of that.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
I agree with you, but there's alot of people on this site that say thats overblown. I'm perfectly happy for OSU's BBall team to be top-25ish, make the tourney, and say 1-2 final fours a decade. Obviously, some years will be better then others.
I wonder how many of the negative posts were by the same people hating on our football team early in the year and calling for Fickell to be fired even while we were undefeated? Seriously everyone will have an opinion but anyone that knows the game knew we had some holes this year and we would be lucky to fill them. We're still competitive and each game can go either way it seems. Entertaining and frustrating - that's just part of being any Ohio team's fan!!!
A) Fickell should have left or been let go. The defense was atrocious and almost every single game I could tell you what the other team was going to do with the ball and yet the playcaller on the defense got out-coached a lot last year.
B) The style of a lot of the players on this years BBall team is fast uptempo transition basketball. we need to play faster/ run the sets and not have guys standing around on offense, but the way we have been playing is run the weave up top and then hit thomas on a slip screen or jack up a shot.
My question would be with thompson on the court why are we trying to set up his shot at times, granted it has improved, but why not create some back screens with the ball on the other side of the court and get him moving towards the rim for some alley-oops and let him attack the basket the way his game is supposed to be played
Agree with all.
Fickell is not a good coach ... sorry
thats funny cause i seem to remember a post on here saying ohio state's defense was 2nd in the nation in november
Here's the easiest point to make: would you rather be North Carolina or Kentucky THIS year? There are ebbs and flows in every program, and this was always going to be a rebuilding year (in terms of national title contention) with potential for much more. They've shown flashes of the potential but just need to be more consistent (a lot of which is mental... trust in each other and in themselves, particularly Laquinton and Amir). If this team can rebound and protect the basketball at the level they are capable, then they are a top 10 team, let alone if they can get it going offensively (I loved the end of first half double pick n roll where Deshaun leaks to the corner drawing 2 guys and Ravenel rolls to the rim for a wide open layup and-1). We need to be better at using Deshaun as a decoy and take advantage when his man does not help as well as when he does help.
I think we have become conditioned to expect excellence and not deal with adversity. Every team has its down years and I expect nothing less from us. We didn't recruit many people this year and we're stuck developing talent. I'm sure in one year we'll be glad that they have developed into the players Matta wants them to be but lets not bash the student athletes we have. I'm satisfied with OSU getting to the sweet 16, finishing top four in the conference and making it to the conference Semifinals. Its just one of those years...
Ohio State's band SLAUGHTERED Michigan's band. If this were a football game, it would have been Florida State vs. Savannah State. - SB Nation following OSU vs. UM 2012
I haven't seen anymore negativity than typical for each season. This is the time to complain because later in the season it won't be complaining, it will be hoping and excitement with a very likelyhood of disappointment. I pointed out a few weeks ago, this time last year the team was in the throws of a losing skid and there was no teamwork, lots of disgruntled talk and poor practicing. Yet they went to the final four and surprised most of us. This time of year is very typical to go through lows like this. It happens.
Think about this, in each of their loses outside of the Illinois game they were in the lead by at least 7-8 points (15 in both Duke and Kansas games) and could have easily have won those. The Illinois game was the only game they just were never in it and that has been typical last few years at Illinois. Tough place to play recently. and I know that is what is so frustrating is that they have shown they are good enough to dominate even the best teams at parts of a game. They just need to learn how to finish and get production when times get tough. Teams learn that as the year goes on and hopefully get it by tourney time.
Also must keep in mind that this is a team with with 1 senior, 2 juniors and the rest are freshmen and sophomores. Outside of Kentucky, not many teams are that young and can still be a contender.
This team can compete with any team out there, just need time to figure a few things out. Its okay to complain now, just don't give up on them yet because still have to play many hard games in conference, conference tourney and then the NCAA. If you are going to hate now, you have a few months left. Enjoy that life!
P.S. I have complained this season and I think I have good reason. Shannon Scott is too reckless to have the ball in his hands at the end of games. Why he is a go to person when there should be a play designed to free Thomas for a shot is beyond me! Scott in no way should be taking the last shot of a game and in no way should be in control of the offense late. Look at the Duke game, MSU and Kansas. At Duke he had 3 straight horrible offensive plays that cost the lead, MSU bad missed late shot and at Kansas tried to become a one man show. He really needs a reality check of who he is at this time. He is not the man.
Fans are going to obsess over the negative. Go back and look in the football forums after the Indiana game.
This team is a victim of unrealistic expectations. It's Matta's fault for being consistently so good. They just lost too much and are not getting the hoped-for contributions from players who were bit-players last year. We really shouldn't be surprised by their struggles, but for being spoiled by Thad's consistent excellence.
This group will keep growing and probably get to Sweet 16, maybe Elite 8. To that point, I have to occassionally remind myself that Matta is awesome. He's turned us into a perennial winner and he does it the right way. Wouldn't trade him for Calipari or any other coach out there.
For perspective, look what Thad has done in his first 8 years compared to Coach Krzyzewski's first 8 seasons at Duke.
Matta 221 wins, 1 NCAA Runner Up, 1 Final Four, 2 Sweet 16s, 1 round of 32, 1 NCAA first round, 1 NIT championship
Krzyzewski 174 wins, 1 NCAA Runner Up, 1 Final Four, 1 Sweet 16, 2 round of 32, 1 NIT quarterfinal
For the first time in four years we dont have an Evan Turner or Jared Sullinger to carry us through the rough times. Is it any surprise we are struggling?
Yah.. All we have is Deshawn Thomas. Woe is We.
Deshaun is good but I dont think he is Sully or Evan Turner good.
I think people just had lofty expectations for a team that just lost one of the best big men in school history and also one of the best scorers in school history. With all Thad has done I think people need to relax and let the man do what he does best, and that is consitently win and recruit. Hopefully that comes to fruition in the form of a National Championship someday.
JT
i agree completely. And right now all of our losses we have had chances to win, except illinois. Who is to say we don't figure it out and win more of those close games from here on out?
THE absolute worst thing that could have happened to Thad Matta happened the day Urban Myer was signed as Ohio State's next football coach.
That's actually a pretty good point - the expectations are so different for football and basketball, and as many have noted they are very different games with very different seasons. Still, the expectations of one bleed over, right or wrong, to the other. Another season of 12-0 (okay, 14-0) football will only heighten the desire of the masses to see Matta's squad win the big dance, or at least put up a serious fight.
ALSO, this Ohio State team is never going to win a game in the Big Ten by scoring 80 points. They must win in an ugly way, by grinding out wins on the defensive end of the court. Not what todays younger generation wants to see, the ones doing most of the "hating".