PHONE'S RINGING -- IT'S URBAN ON THE LINE
•Football Schedule•Basketball Schedule•Forum•About•ContactHoward to the Lakers: Bynum to the Sixers: Iguodala to the Nuggets: Harrington, Afflalo and picks to the Magic (LOL) Pau Gasol not involved in the trade! Lakers' starting 5 will be Nash, Kobe, World Peace, Gasol, Howard. If everyone stays healthy, I can't see anything other than a Heat vs Lakers finals in June.
Thoughts?
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Saw this also, I am just glad they didn't give up Gasol. Earlier today Gasol was included in the trade but the Lakers would have gotten Al Harrington and Howard. I think its a good trade, Bynum could be a beast for years to come but he just doesn't put in the effort like howard does. The magic got a boat load of stuff for howard also so I think it is a good trade for them. I am a big lakers fan have been for a long time and I can't wait for this season, Kobe only has 1 or 2 elite years left in him before he drops off so I hope they can win at least 1 championship to give him 6.
no matter how many rings kobe gets, he will never be in the same league as jordan, never.
Based on what? I love MJeff just as much as the next guy but this adherence that no one will ever get close to his talents is puzzling. I despise LeBron\Michael comparisons as neither can do what the other did-Magic\LeBron is MUCH more appropriate. But if anyone out there mimics Mike's greatness closely, its Kobe. Here's the rub-Michael is more unlikable than Kobe ever was. I know a lot of anti Kobe stuff is based in his attitude-the very same one that made Mike great\famous.
Could you give me a reason why he won't be in the same league? Because if I'm making an all time NBA 12 man roster, Kobe is Jordan's backup (meaning he's the 2nd best 2 of all time). Mike has one more ring (Sorry), both have double digit all star games. Kobe doesn't have as many scoring titles but both have been on similar numbers of All NBA\Defensive NBA teams.
Care to expand at all?
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
^^^ Brewster... though MJ had 6 rings? Not sure, too lazy to look it up right now :)
Correction: A lot of the anti Kobe stuff was based on the whole rape thing
I still see the Lakers having a tough time getting by OKC in the playoffs.
In a 7 game series, who is going to guard Westbrook for the Lakers? Who is going to guard Durant? Harden is a good player, but is still young (just like Durant/Westbrook) and has plenty of room to continue growing and improving his game.
I don't see Howard being a good fit for the Lakers. He's a selfish, me-first guy. If he's not getting the touches or numbers he thinks he deserves, he's going to cause problems/show moodiness/loaf at times. The problem is Dwight really isn't much of an offensive player, yet he feels he deserves to be the focal point of an offense. Kobe won't like that, and there already may be some friction on the court with Kobe/Nash both wanting or needing to dominate the ball.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
And yes, MJ does have 6 rings. None without the most dominating big man in the modern era...
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
Yawn....did we not see this enough on ESPN yet?
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
Magic got hosed.
I dont watch ESPN, I actually found out about the trade from this thread....
Of course the Lakers get what they want. The NBA is a joke.
From a basketball perspective this is great for LA. Howard should be a lot better in an offense that doesn't just shoot threes and ask him to rebound, and the Lakers probably have the best starting five in the NBA right now. It's going to be hard for them to beat Oklahoma City and Miami in back to back series though.
^^^^yes, the nba is a joke. Get rid of that watered down league full of overpaid cry baby's..what a terrible product it's become.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
Yah, I didn't even watch the finals, I am sooooooooo tired of the NBA and all these idiot super stars wanting to play together so there's really only 3-4 good teams every year (of course our very own Lequit started it). I so long for the days of Jordon, Bird, Magic, Barkley, and even for our own Cleveland team of Price, Ehlo, Harper, Hot Rod, and Daugherty.
I think it just comes down to health by the end of the year. Nash has had back problems, Kobe knee probs, Howard just off back surgery. No one is going to stay in front of Westbrook or Durant but outside of Harden, those are the only three that are a consitant threat to score. With Nash running the point, Kobe on the wing and the interior presence of both Gasol and Howard, I think there's only one team that can beat the Lakers in a 7 game series and that's the Heat.
The NBA will have a hard time ever coming close to the success they once had in the late 80's through late 90's. The defense is pathetic. No one gives an all out effort unless the ball is in their hands. The league went downhill when they started letting kids skip college. They ended up with selfish attention whore players. If you want to watch real bastketball, watch the NCAA tourney.
I've always said it would be amazing if Coach K would coach an NBA team, and run the full court press. Just get together a team of guys who are good solid players minus the ego's, and pisss off the rest of the NBA by making them run more.
For me, nothing will beat Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton, and Drexler. The teams were blanced then, and the product was better. Now you can count on only 4-5 teams with a legit chance to win it all. Lakers, Celtics(have won most NBA titles by a landslide) will always be in contention.
Dustin Fox was our leading tackler as a corner.... because his guy always caught the ball.
Yea, God forbid these players use the agreements that everyone signed off on to end up on places that allow them to make the most money and win the titles. When did sticking with a bad team, hoping to grind out a title but never actually doing it become more important than hoisting a trophy at the end of the year? No, lets make these players stay in their shit hole cities for their shit hole teams. How dare you Dwight! Heading to Los Angeles when you played in Orlando, such a WONDERFULL place, for so long.
"And yes, MJ does have 6 rings. None without the most dominating big man in the modern era..."
No, Michael just had one of the best 3's of all time as a running mate and an entire cabal of refs who gave him EVERY.SINGLE.CALL.EVER.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
jordan isnt my favorite basketball player of all time, but he is one of the best 5 ever to play professional ball. kobe, maybe makes my 4th string team, maybe.
Stu, I'm intigued by this. What makes you say Kobe is only in the top 20? Care to expand?
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Agreed that Pippen was good. Very good. Exactly how good though is hard to distinguish. He obviously was not a guy who could be a lead player for a championship team. Even so, who else did the Bulls have on those teams to make them so good? Not much.
I'm not saying Kobe isn't great. I've actually come around a little as far as my perception of him as a player the past few years. But, it's hard to say Kobe would have anything close to the recognition he does now without the help of a presence like Shaq. Shaq was the go-to-guy for all three of the Lakers championships during that run.
Take Shaq off those teams and there's no way they win one. Take Pippen off those Bulls teams, and it becomes much more difficult, but not entirely implausible. My Bulls' fanaticism
may havedefinitely has something to do with my opinion here, but that's all it is - my opinion."What we do in life echoes in eternity"
@brewster: oscar robertson, bill russel, wilt, bob pettit, havlicek, bob cousy, magic, bird,jordan,
durant, lebron, shaq, pippen, elgin baylor, mikan, kareem, just to name a few players off the top of my head, rank ahead of kobe. and if it wasnt for shaq, how many rings would kobe have?
The defense in the NBA, IMO, is actually played as well as it has ever been played. The rules have changed it so much, not so much the effort for me. Players are handicapped on defense with rule changes such as illegal defense and strict hand check policies and contact penalties that weren't in place in the 80s/most of the 90s.
As far as Jordan/Kobe. No, Kobe is not at all on Michael's level. I agree that he's the most similar player, they play the same position and Kobe tries to emulate him in every way. Jordan was hated by peers (mostly guys he played with) because he was a complete and total sociopath when it came to competition. Kobe was hated by many more fans than MJ because he has a perception of being "fake Jordan" and tries to copy/emulate Michael and his mannerisms so much it's kind of creepy sometimes. Then there's the rape thing, which surely doesn't help. I don't care for Kobe much but honestly I think in these last couple years people have forgotten just how good of an individual player he was in his prime. I easily have him as a top 10 player all time. He's up there for me. I think the key comparison as to who wound up with the better career will be Kobe vs LeBron and they played in the same era long enough...Because none are going to have the career Jordan had.
Old-I grew up a huge Bulls fan myself so I know where you are coming from. Kobe has won 2 titles without Shaq and not much else. What Kobe did with his non Shaq titles is a lot more impressive than what Jordan did with Scottie, Rodman, Harper, etc. Kobe won without the same cast Michael did-and a lot of what we are hearing on this very post is that titles get cheapened somehow when you have a great team around you. Kobe was LA in 09 and 10 and they won both titles. I don't like being in the position of attacking Michael Jordan as I think he's the best player in league history but to say Kobe isn't in the same league as him is asinine. It amazes me. A championship ring serves as the icing on a lot of guys careers across all the major sports, yet when guys have them by the hand full, they get lessened by 'how they got them', which is an obscure subjective opinion anyway.
Stu, I'm asking for reasons, not players. Clearly its your opinion that Kobe isn't as good as those players but you aren't telling me why you feel that way. What is it in Kobe's game that has behind all of those players? Kobe has both scoring titles and All Defensive NBA First team nods so he's obviously a complete player. I get it if you don't like the guy but just say that's why you don't think he's one of the best ever. He has accolades matched by, well, only Michael. Oh and Stu-the answer is at least 2. 2 without Shaq. Again, I can't get over this notion that rings are a big deal but only when they are achieved in some noble, unreachable fashion.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Stu, you can't be serious with that list of people better than Kobe. You can also make the reverse argument for Shaq...How many titles would Shaq have without Kobe?? The answer is one and a lot of that thanks goes to Dwyane Wade. You want to talk about guys who had the luxury of playing on great teams and racking up titles? Russell and Hondo. Russell played in an era where there were 9 NBA teams and probably 10 of the top 30 players in the league all played for the Celtics. Russell was simply an athlete ahead of his time as far as size and athleticism and he played in the fastest pace era in NBA history...meaning extremely inflated stats. It wasn't out of the ordinary to see a guy average 20 rebounds a game back then because well more shots were put up per game and the shooters weren't as good, creating more opportunities for rebounds. That always has to be taken into account when comparing the old timers, their stats are always going to be over-inflated relative to today's. Some statistician was doing some points per possession where if they adjusted Bron's stats (during one of his Cavs seasons) for the pace of play during Oscar's time period he would have averaged a triple double easily while scoring nearly 40 ppg. Kobe averaged 35 a game in one season, which back in the day would've been something along the lines of being comparable to averaging just less than 45 a game. We're a few years removed from Kobe's prime and I think people forget just how good he was. I still can't stand him though.
FWIW: I love the NBA but I can understand the criticism it receives. It is different now than in years past. But my guess is that most of the people who criticize it do not watch it on a frequent basis and are basing their opinion on their perception of the players and how the game is played.
This trade is decent for all parties involved except the Magic.
But my guess is that most of the people who criticize it do not watch it on a frequent basis and are basing their opinion on their perception of the players and how the game is played.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Brewster I don't know if I'd go so far as to say Kobe's titles sans Shaq were more impressive than Jordan's titles (I assume you mean only with the cast from the 2nd 3-peat since that's all you listed)...that team was the greatest in NBA history in '96 and the Bulls just steamrolled their way through everyone every year. All of those players on Jordan's team were all old and well past their prime and very overrated because they played with Jordan. Pippen was an all-star without Mike but I wouldn't have put him in the upper echelon of players at the time as an MVP candidate like a Robinson or a Barkley or a Shaq or an Olajuwon or a Malone. Harper was old, beaten up and a 2 guard playing out of position a point. Rodman was one dimensional, old, unreliable at times and always liable to do something stupid. Longley was total garbage, Kukoc never amounted to crap outside of the Bulls and the rest of the team was old as hell journeymen. Bill Wennington, John Salley, Randy Brown, Jud Buechler, Jason Caffey, Dickey Simpkins, etc.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think that team is better than Kobe's teams but I'm just saying a lot of the reason was Jordan, he was everything. And he led that team to the most dominant stretch in modern NBA history. 3 titles, best overall record, and played in only 1 game 7 in MJs career. That was more impressive to me.
kobe didn't have the luxury of two other Hall of Famers on his front 5 in 2009\2010 like Michael did in the second three peat. Again, Jordan is still the greatest ever by a decent margain but he had PLENTY of help along the way-arguably more than Kobe did his second time around.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
kobe is a pretty good player, i just feel there are and were many more better than him thats all i am saying. and that jordan was way better than kobe is. dont have stats in front of me, but i would be curious about jordan field goal pct, versus kobe. 3 point and 2 point shots. anybody?
Pretty good player? Hes the second best shooting guard of all time, and arguably the closest thing to MJ you'll ever see.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
Here goes.
Michael Jeffery Jordan
15 seasons.
Career Shooting (FG\3P\FT)- %49\32\83
PPG-30.1\RPG-6.20\APG 5.3\SPG-2.35
All of this in 38 minutes per game.
Kobe Bryant
16 Seasons
45\35\83
25 points, 5.3 Rebounds. 4.7 assists, 1.5 steals
36 minutes per game.
Mike beats him (as expected) on all fronts but Michael took about 1800 more shots than Kobe (24537-22706). Jordan is 5 points, .9 rebounds, .6 assists, .8 steals better than Kobe. As for Hardware...
Rings-MJ has 6, Kobe has 5
MVP-5 to 1 in favor of Jordan
All Star games-14-10 in favor of Michael
All NBA first team-tied at 10
All NBA All Defensive first team-tied at 9.
The MVP's are a telling sign and a hard point for me to argue. With that said, Kobe lost out to Duncan twice, LeBron thrice, and Nash twice. So its not like he was losing the MVP to scrubs.
Not that far off at all man. These numbers are REALLY close to each other.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Got to remember MJ took a year and a half off of basketball, and it's not like he was winning his MVPs and championships over scrubs (Barkley, Malone, Thomas, Drexler, Ewing, etc.).