Manziel Wins the Heisman

December 8, 2012 at 9:05p    by Alex    
112 Comments
112 Comments

Comments

kr66osu's picture

what a weak year
Still happy he won it over Teo though

Brutus Greyshield's picture

Weak? Manziel was as productive as anyone who has ever won the award. He just doesn't look flashy when he does it.

Matthew's picture

With eSECpn running his campaign, everything about "Johnny Football" and his statistics are pure flash.

Class of 2010

Kalamazoo Steve's picture

@ Matthew, I fat fingered my phone and down voted you by mistake. Sorry bro.

kr66osu's picture

Don't get me wrong, he's a really good player, much better than the other 2 in my opinion. But the groups of finalists in recent years have just been so much better than this

DetroitBuckeye's picture

Look at any air raid quarterback over the last 15 years, his statistics are no different then a Case Keenum or even Kingsbury.

 
Brutus Greyshield's picture

Manziel's 1,000+ yards rushing have to count for something. And isn't it a mark of a great player that he executes precisely what the team's system demands of him? Why is it a knock on him that he fits the system well?

DetroitBuckeye's picture

It isn't a knock on him that he fits the system well just that so many quarterbacks have done exactly what he has done but are getting so much credit for it.  For example, obviously not a mobile quarterback but look at a guy like Case Keenum or Geno Smith same kind of thing.  All i'm saying is he hasn't done anything profound for that system.  In fact I was looking at his stats does he really have just 24 touchdowns to eight interceptions. I think I made my point I would take Geno any day of the week.

 
gwalther's picture

Case Keenum, Geno Smith, and Kliff Kingsbury dont possess the same level or amount of skills Manziel has. I believe using them as an analogy is off base.
 
Also worth pointing out the kid was a freshman, and two of his early games in which his stats weren't ridiculous were against Florida and LSU. He learned from those experiences and finished the season on a roll.
 
Braxton, although not a red-shirt, was light years away from Johnny Manziel's level when he became a starter for the first time last year. Give the kid more credit than, "he was the best of a bad group."

Class of 2008

Buckeyejason's picture

Detroit quit trying you sound like a fool. He had one of the greatest seasons ever as a FRESHMAN!!!! Stop trying to belittle the guys accomplishments. 
You'd take Geno every day of the week? LOL omg you're clueless.

BUCKEYES BABY!

DetroitBuckeye's picture

Look at their statistics they are very similar and yes I would take Geno Smith who had way less around him and accomplished a lot more.  24 touchdowns to eight interceptions impresses you really???  I don't see what him being a freshman has to do with anything.

 
RedStorm45's picture

Detroit, just stop.  You have not included any rushing stats (1200 yards, 19 tds).  You're comparing apples to oranges.  And geno smith had less around him?  Are you insane?? Tayvon Austin.  Look him up...got some heisman votes.

DetroitBuckeye's picture

Yeah he had one receiver, look at the offensive line and defense that Texas a & m had.  Don't compare what he had around him to what Manziel did it's not even close.  To me 40 tds and 6 ints is better than Manziel's numbers even with the rushing.  

RedStorm45's picture

Stedman bailey had 1500 yards receiving.  So your theory is basically wrong about the weapons for smith vs the weapons around manziel.

DetroitBuckeye's picture

No it's not at Texas A&M Manziel had one of the best o lines in the country blocking for him.  Ever heard of Luke Joeckel???  Plus let's be honest here the defense is much better for a & m, Geno knew he had to score every single time. 

 
Buckeyejason's picture

You're arguments are terrible. Just go away please.

BUCKEYES BABY!

DetroitBuckeye's picture

Your right, he's the messiah and will win 4 heismans.

 
UrbanCulture's picture

Brax with 3 first place votes!
 

Buckeyevstheworld's picture

So the ESPiN hype machine proves successful yet again.

"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.

Matthew's picture

Cupcake a riffic Heisman year.
 

- @ SMU: 20/36, 294 passing yards, 4 TD passes, 13 carries, 124 rushing yards, 2 rushing TDs
- South Carolina State: 15/20, 174 passing yards, 3 TD passes, 8 carries, 78 rushing yards, 2 rushing TDs
-Sam Houston State: 14/ 20, 267 passing yards, 3 TD passes, 1 interception, 16 carries, 100 yards, 2 rushing TDs

 

Class of 2010

faux_maestro's picture

S-E-C! S-E-C! S-E-C!

Inní mér syngur vitleysingur

Matthew's picture

16 TDs against those teams. 0 against FLA, LSU, and Miss St.
 
Just proves that SEC is the holy gift to all of football, mirite?

Class of 2010

GABuckeye's picture

Actually he rushed 1 against Florida and 2 against Mississippi State.  

Matthew's picture

I meant no passing TDs. My mistake.

Class of 2010

Baroclinicity's picture

The whole schedule was cupcake in terms of the numbers and wins he earned. 
SMU, SC State, Arkansas, Ole Miss, La. Tech, Auburn, Miss. State, Sam Houston State, Missouri. 
He nailed it in the Alabama game obviously, but had a hand in losing the UF and LSU games.
Not really Heisman worthy, now is it? (said in the tone of the Princeton U. recruiter in "Risky Business" when assessing his decent work at high school but that it's not Ivy League-worthy)

Brutus Greyshield's picture

The schedule only gets easier for A&M next year. Vandy will replace Florida as their non-fixed SEC-West opponent.

old_rasputin's picture

Thanks for pointing this out.  Really my only hope now is that the trophy will be stripped from him for using black magic on 474 voters.  This also gives me hope.

"We hate to lose, but when we do, rest assured we'll be back, and someone will pay the price." Coach Hayes

LadyBuck's picture

I didn't even know that was tonight. I could care less. No buckeyes were invited, and I had no dog in the fight.

Baroclinicity's picture

Yeah, just don't want to see underclassmen getting it... Archie and all...

DaiTheFlu's picture

Manziel wasn't on ANY Heisman voter's radar until A&M beat Bama. He looked terrible against Florida and LSU and played like a champ against a typical SEC OOC schedule. He won the Heisman because there really weren't any outstanding candidates and the SEC always gets the benefit of the doubt now, apparently. So ready for this BS season to be over and the year of the Buckeye to commence! Bring on 2013!

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

kr66osu's picture

That pretty much sums up my feelings about this, and it's also why I'm not even remotely scared of Manziel winning another one in the future. There was just nobody to challenge him this year as evidenced by a good but not great LB being second place (I mean seriously, THAT'S the closest competitor??)

TheHostileDwarf's picture

Braxton's taking it next year. F the SEC.

Doc's picture

If I read the article correctly he is a redshirt transfer freshman. Meaning this is his third year removed from high school, he could turn pro.  Am I right, or did I read that wrong.  If I'm right, what are his chances of leaving for the NFL?  He is 20, should really be a junior.
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the trophy, I'm just trying to figure out if Archie's "title" is in jeopardy.

"Say my name."

highwire's picture

Manziel isn't winning it twice if Tebow couldn't.

Alice in Aggieland's picture

If I read the article correctly he is a redshirt transfer freshman. Meaning this is his third year removed from high school, he could turn pro.

Nope. He's a redshirt freshman in his second year out of HS, though he did enroll early and apparently has enough school credits for junior academic standing; he just turned 20 like three days ago. (He's actually transferring to the department I'm in, though in a different major from the one I teach in.) 

Doc's picture

Alice, the article says he started off at Oklahoma, then transferred to A&M.  Didn't he have to sit out a year because of transfer rules.  I might have read the article wrong, it was a long day yesterday.:/

"Say my name."

Alice in Aggieland's picture

From the ESPN article: 

Peterson was a true freshman for Oklahoma. As a redshirt freshmen, Manziel attended school and practiced with the team last year, but did not play in any games.

The article talks about Adrian Peterson being a true freshman at Oklahoma, but forgets to name A&M as the team Manziel practiced with last year. Unclear writing - shocker, coming from ESPN. Manziel had a scholly offer from Oregon but turned it down when offered by Sherman. He's a redshirt freshman, not a transfer.
I hope Braxton kicks his ass next year.

johnblairgobucks's picture

during work, travel time, I get a chance to listen to about an hour of radio a day.  Over the past few weeks I've hear multiple ESPN Radio "personalities" refer to Manziel as a true-freshman.  Knowing this to be false, I just had to SMH in disappointment at their professionalism and change the channel. 

Doc's picture

Alice, thanks for the clarIfication.  Reading comprehension wasn't my strong suit.

"Say my name."

Alice in Aggieland's picture

No problem. That paragraph is really, really poorly worded. Had I not been forced to endure the Legend of Johnny Football for the last few months, I would've been confused, too.

Seabass1974's picture

I wonder what the tv rating was this year, say comnpared to a year when a Buckeye player at least gets invited? I didn't watch it, did anyone else?

The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender. - Woody Hayes

highwire's picture

Nope. Watched Animaniacs...was not disappointed.

Buckeyevstheworld's picture

90s nostalgia. lol

"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.

Brutus's picture

Goodfeathers = awesome.

NoVA Buckeye's picture

Warner Bros or Nickelodeon version?

The offseason begins when your season ends. Even then there are no days off.

Buckeyevstheworld's picture

To watch someone not named Braxton win it? No thanks.

"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.

CO 303 Buckeye's picture

The year Troy Smith won the finalists other than him weren't awe inspiring.  Does that mean he wasn't an amazing quarterback?  Hell no!  Troy was amazing, as is "Johnny Football".  He has better stats than Troy, although Troy played better in big games, with about an equal game against Florida.  Manziel IS a good player, and a good kid as far as I can tell from his speech and interviews tonight.
Also, don't forget, we do have a guy named Braxton on our team who is gonna break a few ankles next year and score, on the low side, say about 40 touchdowns.  So be happy, Manziel isn't gonna win 2 years in a row, and Brax is gonna dominate next year and be the next Heisman/National Champ since Scam Newton.  This year wasn't great for stars in college football, but next year's finalists of Braxton Miller, Johnny Manziel and whoever else will be one of the best in history.

highwire's picture

Manziel is overhyped. The SEC usually has legit players to slobber over (Tebow, Ingram, Newton), but Manziel is nowhere near that level. But, somebody downvoted you for no reason, so here's an upvote.

Brutus Greyshield's picture

Manziel had more total yards than Newton or Tebow had during their Heisman runs.

highwire's picture

Unfortunately he also has less talent.

DetroitBuckeye's picture

24 touchdowns to 8 interceptions including 5 touchdowns to 4 interceptions against nationally ranked teams just doesn't impress me much.  The fact is Johnny put up ridiculous numbers against awful teams but who else do you vote for???  

 
RedStorm45's picture

Do you know they do run the ball still? Crazy, I know.

onetwentyeight's picture

DISCLAIMER: This is coming from a guy who thinks OSU will go 26-0, win the NCG over an SEC team next year, and potentially make a run for Oklahoma's all-time 47 win streak. So I am not some SEC apologist who has an axe to grind. I am as drunk as hell on the Urban kool-aid as anyone on this board. YET. 
I hate to say it, but Brax isn't winning it next year. Manziel probably will. He'll probably win it 3 straight years before he goes Pro. Every year there's some new hot QB who everyone gushes will be "The ONE" so to say. The QB who combines speed and rushing ability with pocket passing ability. First it was Vick, then Vince Young, then Tebow (who am I kidding? it was never Tebow haha) and then Cam Newton and RG3. The results have been mixed. Tebow is an obvious bust. The jury's still out on Cam newton. Vick always teased but never put it all together in the NFL. RG3 sure looks promising right now, but so did Cam Newton at this time last season. I wonder how good RG3 will look once teams have tape and scouting on him and adjust for his tendencies next season. I am willing to bet he'll look far more ordinary. 
HOWEVER, that being said. You guys can kill me for this, but Manziel is The One. It was going to happen sooner or later - a QB would combine breakaway speed and halfback elusiveness with accuracy and pocket passing acumen. Manziel is that QB. I'm a Saints fan and during that Alabama game everyone was calling Manziel "white mike vick", etc. But the guy he resembled the most, to me, was oddly enough Drew Brees. And then I looked up the box score and his passing accuracy was eeriely Brees-esque. 
I also had Manziel in my college football fantasy league so I was paying attention to him from the beginning, unlike most people who only heard of him after the bama game. He did have a bad game against LSU and they also lost by 3 to UF, but if you watched those games he didn't do any worse numbers-wise than your Average Starting SEC QB and he did keep them in both games until late into the 4th Quarter. And he's a redshirt freshman. 
You guys can downvote me now but I'm just speaking the truth the way I see it. Manziel was better than Brax this year and will always be better. Right now, I'm not sure Brax has an NFL future even. Johnny Manziel's worst case scenario is Steve Young. 

Brutus Greyshield's picture

Boo! I think he had a great year and that he deserved the trophy this year. But he smacks of a one-hit-wonder to me.

onetwentyeight's picture

Again, time will tell and I PERSONALLY obviously hope Brax wins it next year. BUT. When you're watching a scrambling QB that other people are calling "white mike vick" but he reminds you of DREW BREES PASSING THE BALL ... then to me that's something of a sign that we're dealing with a unique talent here. Something unprecedented. 

DetroitBuckeye's picture

He isn't close to Drew Brees, he is wayyyy too careless with the ball and honestly as a pure passer he doesn't impress me all that much.  The "white mike vick" stuff is equally ridiculous especially considering that there have been better comparisons to that in the past like Kapernick.  He's a good talent but to say unique is quite a stretch, I would take Geno Smith over him in a heartbeat.

 
Buckeyejason's picture

Manziel and Vick are 6'0 tall..Kapenick is 6'4". Totally different comparisons.
Once again you have no credibility.

BUCKEYES BABY!

DetroitBuckeye's picture

I was speaking about him being a mobile quarterback who could also throw not his height.  

 
CO 303 Buckeye's picture

Drew Brees at Purdue would have passed for 300+ against every SEC team this year.  He was a once in a generation talent.  Even if Manziel is a "White Mike Vick", M Vick didn't win a Heisman, let alone 2 or 3.  Yeah, the kid can run the ball, but he can't pass like Brees.  Give me a frickin break dude.

Riggins's picture

Manziel's worst case scenario is Steve F***ing Young?
Did you seriously type that?  Manziel's FLOOR is Steve Young?  Hall of Famer, 3 time Super Bowl winner, 2 time league MVP, with like 10 NFL records to boot?

NoVA Buckeye's picture

Did someone on ESPN say that? Because I think they'd say his floor is Tom Brady.

The offseason begins when your season ends. Even then there are no days off.

CO 303 Buckeye's picture

No way- According to ESPN he will win 4 straight Heismans and then 17 straight NFL MVPs.  Also he will legalize Polygamy and marry every supermodel ever, and he will be president by 2025, leading to the greatest economic prosperity in the United States since the 1950s.  YAY.

Kalamazoo Steve's picture

You forgot to mention he will have the privilege of washing Tebow's car.

onetwentyeight's picture

Why is that so absurd to behold? SOMEBODY has to come along one day and be better than Steve young, right? Why not this guy? What can't he do? He went 35 minutes against the top defense in the land, on the road, his first year starting and threw exactly ONE incompletion while carving them up like swiss cheese on the ground. Tell me what weakness he has in his game? 
 
Is it the ESPN hype? Why is it so hard to believe that in this day and age, great new players will inevitably come up, just like they did in say Steve young or Elway's era? The next batch of great QBs has to come from SOMEWHERE. Again, why not him? I'm not saying IT WILL BE him. But give me reasons why NOT. He's a freshman but he's deadly accurate, he's got an arm, he can elude pressure like few others, he's got 4.4 escape speed, ... what about his skill set definitively proves that he won't be great and is overhyped? I don't see it. 
 
But hey if we reflexively oppose anyone ESPN hypes (and espn hypes EVERYONE nowadays) then mathematically speaking, one of these days someonewill come along who IS deserving of this hype but we'll reject them ANYWAYS just b/c ESPN also hyped them? It makes no sense. 
 
This is like watching Kobe in high school, reading the ESPN hype comparing him to say MJ and going NO WAY. HE's OVERRATED. ITS UNPOSSIBLE ANYONE ESPN HYPES CAN BE GREAT. Well say what you want about Kobe (Lebron also works in this scenario), but he IS one of the best player in basketball history, and he HAS accomplished enough in his career to "justify" that hype. 

DetroitBuckeye's picture

Alabama has IMO an overrated secondary and they are definitely not the best defense in the land.  One flaw he has in his game which isn't his fault is height, sure it can be overcome like other quarterbacks have before but it still makes it more difficult.  Another is mechanics as he doesn't have anywhere near nfl ready mechanics for a quarterback, personally I don't really think that matters but when you compare him to Steve Young I would assume that you mean for the nfl and not his days at BYU.  Finally, the biggest reason is because no quarterback who has played in a true air raid system has ever been successful in the nfl.  The reads are way too simple and generally relies more heavily on the shorter passing game, in the nfl these windows are closed.  He's good especially for a freshman but I just don't see it.  As stated above I would definitely take Geno Smith over him, then again Geno is a senior so there is always that.  Oregon's quarterback has similar tools as well.  The biggest problem I have with him has nothing to do with him but that his air raid predecessor's who have had way better seasons than him didn't get enough credit for the seasons that they put up but just because he was in the sec it somehow made it legit.

 
onetwentyeight's picture

That's the thing about the SEC though. The SEC is "overrated" even though it's clearly a better conference than say the Big XII where Geno played. But the SEC is overrated b/c many of their best teams have paleolithic offenses. But their defenses are NOT overrated. There's a reason why Urban has said SPECIFICALLY that he wants to build a quote "SEC style" defense/defensive line HERE. 
And being that Manziel played agianst these SEC defenses, I don't hold that against him when weighing in the "SEC hype" so to speak. I have no doubt he would've had even gaudier numbers had he gotten to face like Baylor and West Virginia's defenses. Anyone who says otherwise is being straight up dishonest. 
 
And yes, even the mighty steve young himself was a freshman at BYU once upon a time. My point wasn't that RIGHT NOW he's better than steve young. I said when it's all said and done, I wouldn't be surprised if he's not any worse than Young was. 
 
Playing against Big XII defenses IMO inflated Geno's stats immensely (having great receivers helped too) and just like Manziel he was in an "air raid" style system that you seem to hold against Manziel but not Geno? 
Mariotta is a different case becuase he comes from a system that's not QB-centric. It's sort of like AJ McCarron. Both Oregon and Bama rely on their top 2 backs and the run a lot more than they do on their QB (obviously they both play at a different pace, but the point remains). Mariotta never had to manufacture offense by himself or put his team on his back and carry them to victory. 

I agree that no Air Raid qbs have succeeded in the NFL thus far, but 1.) Air Raid has been traditionally employed by outgunned smaller programs, where the QB talent is more limited and 2.) Manziel and qbs of his generation are far more advanced at this age than any QBs from the past, with the 24/7 QB camps, individualized professional QB coaches, ability to break down tape endlessly on things like ipads, etc. 
 

johnblairgobucks's picture

so in less than 365 days, Manziel went from not being better than Ryan Tannehill to being better than Steve Young.  O.K. 
in less than 365 days, the 2013 season will kick-off, kids will lace 'em up and see who else improves.
BTW, had 'Bama beaten Texas AtM in the final seconds.  A.J. Mackeron would have won the Heisman not Manziel.

onetwentyeight's picture

There's no way a great player might've flown under the radar for a while. That has never happened in any sport before. Ever. OK.

DetroitBuckeye's picture

The sec is the best conference in the land that's quite clear but he didn't put up those stellar numbers against sec defenses he put them up while a&m was playing cupcakes.  I would also say that the sec is quite top heavy and that Geno had a tougher week to week grind playing in the big 12.  I don't hold the air raid against Manziel, it just infuriates me that all the other past air raid quarterbacks who put up far better numbers in the same system got no respect yet he does.  I used the marriota example because it was the closest example of a talented freshman quarterback and his numbers are quite good, I agree though that his system isn't tailored around him.  Your missing the main point or reason for the air raid quarterbacks failure in the nfl it has nothing to do with smaller schools because some of them would've broke through regardless.  It has to do with simple the reads are, how short most of the throws are etc.  Nfl systems are much more complicated.  I disagree with you most about Geno though I think if he had played A&M's schedule his numbers would actually be much better.  Especially if he had that defense which would take the pressure of him feeling like he has to score every time and the offensive line for the aggies which shouldn't be overlooked.  My point is that while Manziel did play some top heavy teams he also played his fair share of cupcakes (as did geno) which allowed him to accumulate the majority of his gaudy numbers.  

 
onetwentyeight's picture

I have so much to disagree with you on about the BIG XII defenses (MY GOD.) but yeah I understand where you're coming from about the Air Raid. I don't dispute that it's a system which, like you said, relies on simpler reads and easier throws than NFL offenses do. This is pretty obvious. But aren't Most college offenses... the same way?
 
And wasn't that the same criticism about the spread in college? Everything you said about the Air Raid some scout somewhere said about Cam newton on the eve of his going #1. Oh, Malzahn's spread relies on simple reads, quick easy throws, no complicated progressions to go through, etc etc. Maybe that was true. Malzahn's offense, and the Air Raid, is obviously less complicated than any NFL offense. But Cam Newton still had a great first year, and his passing numbers this year are actually marginally better than they were last year, when he BROKE PEYTON MANNINGS rookie passing yards record. Peyton Manning, only the prototypical drop back pocket passer, mind you. And now RG3 is lighting up the league after playing in a similarily "Simple" spread offense in college. He's every bit the player Luck is even though Luck played in what traditionally was the only style offense that could succeed.
 
But now that's no longer the case, and I suspect you won't hear many spread QBs stigmatized now anymore because of these success stories, and how they atone for the stigma that flop QBs from the spread offense caused. My point is that the same thing could happen for the Air Raid. Football is changing. If Manziel has the tools in terms of accuracy and escape ability of RG3 by the time he's a senior and up for the draft, IMO there's a good chance he could make the progression w/out having his AIr Raid past "hamper" him, so to speak. 

DetroitBuckeye's picture

It's totally different with the airraid as the reads are much much simpler and for the most part all all presnap.  You are comparing apples to oranges, also generally airraid quarterbacks have arm strength issues as does Manziel which will hamper him at the next level, I don't even think he will warrant a 1st round pick.  Also off topic a bit but Andrew Luck to this point is miles ahead of RG3 in terms of development, it's not close.

 
cplunk's picture

I'm not sure what the argument is that this post is part of, but mad props for using "unpossible" and all credit to Ralph Wiggum.

Tommy's picture

His worst case scenario is an all-time NFL great? C'mon man.  Biased towards your fantasy players much?

Baroclinicity's picture

Not feeling this one, brother. 

Iwearmocs's picture

Uh, Nope.  In order to repeat he has to: A: Have a better season then he did last year, and B: have no one else be close (kinda like this year, a linebacker w/ arguable statistics was his closest competition? Please, weakest heisman in years).  I don't think he's likely to repeat even if he is steve young 2.0 due to someone (Braxton, the next QB to come from nowhere that we haven't heard about) putting up numbers next year.  Honestly Braxton's got a better chance to manziel IMO b/c ohio state is going to be undefeatedish for the next two years, and A&M is always gonna have at least 2 losses. He's going to take a step back as SEC defenses adjust, and probably won't win another.  If Tebow couldn't do it (and he's the best college player I've seen in my lifetime) Manziel isn't going to.

Seabass1974's picture

It's sad to see the Heisman become a QB only trophy. It's been an offense only trophy for sometime now though. They should update this on their Heisman criteria.

The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender. - Woody Hayes

NGBuck21's picture

I remember thinking that Suh was most worthy in his year.

Buckeyejason's picture

Congrats to Johnny, what a great player and impressive young man.
All you people hating on the kid and spewing off your personal little sports agendas are a joke. 
 
 

BUCKEYES BABY!

DaiTheFlu's picture

Uh, no. The dude comparing a FRESHMAN QB to Steve Young and other HALL OF FAME NFL PLAYERS is a joke. But then, his opinions support your obviously distorted narrative, so we won't mention that, right? You cannot ignore the fact that Manziel won it as a result of insane ESECpn hype, all of which occurred after A&M beat SEC darlings Alabama. He was nowhere NEAR the top 5 Heisman contenders until that game, and he didn't have any games even close to that performance after the Bama game. As documented above, the good majority of his stats were padded against garbage competition. And no one here is homerishly suggesting Braxton should have won it, because no reasonable Ohio State fan would think that. So no, there are no "little" sports agendas being spewed here, other than your desperate SEC fawning.

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

Buckeyejason's picture

Everyone that wins it each year is a product of the ESPN hype machine. Try harder than that.

BUCKEYES BABY!

DaiTheFlu's picture

Are you done?

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

onetwentyeight's picture

My comparison MIGHT very well be a joke. The odds that Manziel do not reach the HOF are high right now. But WHY is my statement a joke on its face? What are your reasons that my comparison was a joke? What are the football reasons or statistical reasons or whatever you'd draw on? Why do you think you can just get away with calling what I said a "joke" without any evidence or support, just b/c my comparison was (admittedly) bold? I offered up my reasons, you can disagree with them b/c this is MURICAAA, but now where are yours? 
 
Just b/c he wasn't on some pundits' "Heisman radar" before an arbitrary date on the calender automatically = he didn't deserve it and that he has ZERO chance of ever becoming a great player? 
Or is it the ESPN hype machine? Anyone espn hypes must be a fraud and overrated. ESPN never has once hyped a guy who deserved it. Ever. Not even that one Michael Jordan guy they wouldn't stop "FAWNING" about back in the 1990s. Alright bruh. This is some sound logic you got goin here. 

DaiTheFlu's picture

Yes, your statement that Manziel's worse-case scenario would be "Steve Young" was pretty funny, as everyone here can certainly attest. You can defend ESPN all you want, but the fact remains that this year's Heisman finalists were a weak class, which is one reason why there were only 3 of them. Someone had to win it and Manziel had a good year. It just so happens that he had the SEC and ESPN hype backing him up. We can look up the QB's over the last 5 years and find multiple QB's that had better statistical seasons, but were never even mentioned for the award. Manziel playing in the SEC and having ESPN constantly fawning over him was a huge advantage for him, whether you choose to accept that or not. Manziel had what I would consider to be three showcase games, which were against Bama, LSU and Florida. Let's take a look at these three games:
Florida: 23/30 Att. 173 Yds, 0 TD, 0 INT. 17 Rush, 60 Yds, 1 TD
LSU : 29/56 Att. 276 Yds, 0 TD, 3 INT. 17 Rush, 27 Yds
Bama: 24/31 Att. 253 Yds, 253 Yds, 2 TD 0 INT. 18 Rush, 92 Yds
Breakdown: about 700 yards passing, 2TDs and 3 INTs in his showcase games. According to your logic, that counts as "hall of fame" material. Give me a break.
Even the biggest SEC homer would have to agree that only one out of these three games was a great, Heisman-worthy performance; It just so happens that this game was against the #1 team in the country, and on the road against Bama. It was an amazing performance. However, the other two poor efforts were not nationally televised and also occurred early in the season, which benefits Manziel. I'm not going to break down the rest of his season, because it was done above and in great detail. Aside from these three marquee games, Manziel's stats mostly came against pathetic competition. So, this guy that you claim to be Steve Young, Mike Vick and Drew Brees all in one, rolled his stats up against garbage teams and one phenomenal performance against Alabama. Yeah, that's some "sound logic", isn't it?

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

onetwentyeight's picture

You would be right ... if this was his Senior year and this was as good as he would ever be. But that's the very reason why I went out on a limb in my prediction. He had a great year by Anyone's standards. By the standards of a Senior QB who is supposed to be "legendary", then yea his year wasn't good enough to qualify. If he was a 3rd or 4th year starter I'd agree with you 100%. 
BUT HE'S NOT. 
This was his first year playing real live college football games. Florida was his first ever college game. 700 yds passing, 2/3 TD/INT against THREE of the top 5 best college football teams in the country would be passable by any standard. Coming from a freshman, who also re-wrote the record books in the other 9 games he played, then to me it's at least plausible to extrapolate that into "legendary" DOWN THE ROAD. 
Note that I also never said he was "legendary" or HOF caliber RIGHT NOW. Of course he's not. 1.) he's in college 2.) he's a redshirt freshman. 
Yes we can look up QBs over the last 5 yrs who've had better statistical seasons than him (but none in his own conference...), but do this for me: go through the record books and find me one FRESHMAN QB who has had a better statistical season. That's the crux of my argument. Based on his FRESHMAN year performance, it's reasonable to extrapolate, with the typical year-to-year improvement of MOST college players, that Manziel's development curve might lead us into "legendary" territory. 
 
 

DetroitBuckeye's picture

Marcus Marriota, I think has a higher ceiling.

DaiTheFlu's picture

And I never said Manziel was a bad QB. I think he is largely a product of a hype-driven enterprise, which is unfortunately what college football has come to be. I think out of the 3 candidates, Manziel almost HAD to win, for a variety of reasons. 1) Te'o is in no way, shape or form the best defensive player ever, which he almost would have had to be in order to be the first all-defensive player to win the trophy. 2) Klein was probably the frontrunner after Geno Smith tumbled into obscurity, but faltered down the stretch. Also, his stats were very similar to Braxton Miller's stats, except Braxton led his team to 12-0. So I think by process of elimination, Manziel had to win. The fact that he was a freshman shouldn't have mattered, and I'm glad it didn't. That being said, I do believe that Manziel won the Heisman Trophy on the strength of the Alabama win. He wasn't on the radar before that game, nor did he do anything to screw up his chances after the game. It, to me, was quite similar to Suh's performance in the Big 12 Championship in 2009. Not many people watched every Nebraska game that year, but MILLIONS saw him destroy Texas and almost singlehandedly win that game for Nebraska. Following the game, there was a huge groundswell of support for Suh to win the Heisman, which ultimately didn't happen. 
Whatever happened this year, I didn't have a horse in the race so I didn't really dissect the candidates. These opinions are based solely on my perception of the candidates, and my perceptions - just like yours - are distorted by the lens through which I view the world. He deserved it when compared to the other less than overwhelming candidates this year, but I did not find myself in awe of his exploits throughout the season, the Alabama game notwithstanding.

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

DaiTheFlu's picture

Honestly, I didn't really care about your hyperbole-laden statements. I chalked it up to an internet expert spouting off his opinion. We all do that. I had more of a problem with "Buckeye Jason" calling the people in this thread "a joke", simply because he didn't agree with their opinions. I just happened to use your statement to identify an ACTUAL joke.

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

johnblairgobucks's picture

I do believe we are all entitled to review stats/facts/moments and come up with our own conclusions, and then express those conclusions in this forum...... as long as we adhere to the 11W commenting policy.

smithwessonBuckeye's picture

The downvotes are going to rain but I agree. There is not one piece of legit info that would suggest anything other than the fact that he earned it.

DaiTheFlu's picture

You're entitled to believe whatever you like, but someone calling people on this thread "a joke" because they don't share the same opinion isn't really adhering to the commenting policy, I would think. Dissenting opinions are great, just don't be disrespectful about it.

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

smithwessonBuckeye's picture

Isn't this the exact same thing? This is the gray area in the commenting policy. Some of the comments made are not opinions but asinine assumptions and rumor mongering. Not on this thread as much but on some others.

DetroitBuckeye's picture

A 3 to 1 touchdown to interception ratio isn't exactly heisman material IMO.

 
CincyOSU's picture

Why do you conveniently forget to talk about his rushing stats? If you do the same for Braxton he becomes very mediocre. With this type of QB you cannot ignore rushing stats as they are jut as important as his passing stats. And btw, a 3 to 1 ratio would be considered elite in the NFL.

DetroitBuckeye's picture

No in the nfl it wouldn't be considered elite but instead good.  Yeah his rushing numbers are elite most definitely but he plays in a system that doesn't demand a running quarterback unlike Braxton, I think Klein had the better year.  Congrats to him though I guess we can just ignore the fact that his passing stats compared to other air raid qbs are extremely mediocre.  Geno Smith 40 tds 6 ints, Colby Cameron 31 tds 5 ints, even a lesser qb like Seth Doege 38 tds and 14 ints.  The only difference is sec hype that led to Johnny doing what qbs in these systems do every year lets just ignore that though right???

DaiTheFlu's picture

Hey, we only ignore facts that don't support our narrative. Hmmm, that sounds suspiciously similar to this 4-letter sports network I know...

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

DaiTheFlu's picture

Does anyone remember the year Nebraska played Texas in the Big 12 Championship? Ndamakong Suh DOMINATED that game and harassed Texas QB's all game long. After the game, a lot of people were touting Suh as the Heisman frontrunner based on one dominating performance. The fact is, that game had a huge audience and not many people had seen him disappear in games earlier in the year. So all of Suh's Heisman hype was based on ONE dominating game, just like Manziel's. He had a great game when everyone in America was watching,and it just so happened that all of the other contenders faltered down the stretch. This is how he won the Heisman, plain and simple. No one was talking about him as a Heisman contender until the Bama game, period.

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

onetwentyeight's picture

To all the folks who seem to discredit Manziel just b/c ESPN hypes him: Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Don't let your ESPN Bias become some sort of filter with which you automatically take the opposite position of what they champion. 
I'm all for people offering up counter points to what I wrote about Manziel AS A FOOTBALL PLAYER. But don't give me the "he must suck b/c ESPN loves him and I hate ESPN, ERGO he sucks" type of s*it logic. We can argue his stats, the level of competition, who he plays with and against, all that good stuff. I might be wrong. I made it VERY CLEAR in the original post that it was just my own judgment and OBVIOUSLY I'm not a D1 coach or NFL scout. SO yea, the odds that I, a broke-as-crap grad student, am wrong about Johnny Manziel's future as a football player are Relatively High. I can accept that. But at least have the FOOTBALL discussion. 
 
I hate the SEC as much as the next guy but that didn't stop me from honestly going, Wow, Manziel looks like Drew Brees with Vick speed out there, during the bama game. He honestly blew me away that much. I just looked up the play-by-play of that game in an effort to see if I was exaggerating what I remember. But nope. The kid threw TWO INCOMPLETIONS for the first THREE quarters. He had ONE incompletion until a minute left in the 3rd. For the first 35 minutes, against the #1 College football defense, on the road, in his first year starting, he threw 1 incompletion. I'm sorry but that is drew brees passing numbers and THAT is why I went off into hyperbole-land, so to speak. 
Yes, it's only 1 game, yes he lost 2 other ones, yes some of his competition was weak (but so was ours, cmon). But I feel like I at least have an arguable case that we're watching the beginning of an "once in a generation" type player. Feel free to disagree, downvote, whatever. Just no ESPN crap. Please. 
 

johnblairgobucks's picture

Mike Vick Speed is something Manziel doesn't play with. 
Mike Vick ran a 4.25 40yd dash @ Va Tech
http://www.gridironstuds.com/blog/the-fastest-40-yard-dash-ever/

William's picture

Klein > Manziel
 
 

DetroitBuckeye's picture

Post of the year.

 
William's picture

I mean how do you argue against that? He had a better record against BCS teams with a winning record, and better numbers against them. Even if you extrapolate Manziel's numbers against BCS AQ teams with a winning record to 8 games, he'd still have 15 fewer TDs and 4 more turnovers than Klein. Klein played better against good teams. He didn't do what every Air Raid Qb does, and that's put up huge stats against cupcake teams, while fall flat against good ones. Manziel basically won the award because he had one great game and that was against Alabama. Klein was good-great against winning teams all season, with the exception of the Baylor game. 

DetroitBuckeye's picture

Exactly, that was my point all along.  I don't have anything against Johnny but I don't think he was better then Klein.  Also I don't think that Klein lost it because the Baylor game but instead because he plays for Kansas State. I am pretty confident were he our qb(love Braxton not a slight on him)he would have won the heisman.

 
onetwentyeight's picture

How do you argue against that? Easy. Klein is 23, Manziel was 19. 
 
I didn't even say Manziel was better than Klein RIGHT NOW. You guys are not seeing the forest through the trees. Why do you keep comparing Manziel's FRESHMAN season with other guys' SENIOR seasons?! Does the concept of "IMPROVEMENT" from your FRESHMAN to SENIOR seasons not ring a bell? Anywhere? Manziel is as good as he'll ever be right now because... why exactly? Why do we just ASSUME he is stuck at this level for the next 4 years even though 100+ years of CFB evidence shows us players GENERALLY tend to improve from years 1-4. I mean, that's not a hard concept to grasp, am I wrong? 
And if players DO improve from years 1-4, and if Manziel's Year 1 was Way Better than ANYONE ELSE's, why DOESN'T that mean he might have a chance to be unique? Why do we just automatically try to discredit his Year 1 by absurdly comparing it to other guys' Year 3/4? 
 
I'm talking about grading on a curve b/c my entire argument was predicated on the fact that Manziel had this season in his redshirt freshman year. This OBVIOUSLY matters and you can't ignore it and pretend he was a Senior like Klein was. 
 
Look at the FRESHMAN SEASONS in all of CFB history and I dare ANYONE to find one QB who's numbers can compare. Cupcakes or not. If he had arguably the best Freshman season of any CFB QB ever, why ISN'T it rational to predict he might become "legendary" or whatever? ... Is it because we're SCARED around here that he might wind up better than Brax and break Archie's Heisman record? If so, that's fine. But it doesn't change, oh IDK, "Reality". And the Reality is his freshman season is one of the best by a QB in history. So why shouldn't we assume he has a shot at continuing this trajectory? 
 
 
 
 
 

William's picture

I literally haven't said anything to disagree with what you're saying, other than Klein's seaons this year was better than Manziel's this year, which is why I think he should've won the Heisman. 

cplunk's picture

I think where you go wrong is that college success does not necessarily translate to NFL success. We have decades of proof that players who are phenomenal in college are not necessarily great in the NFL and that players who sometimes were not particularly impressive in college can be amazing in the NFL.
It is certainly reasonable to make an educated guess that Manziel's freshman year might be his lowest level of college accomplishment and each year might get better. It's debatable, but its reasonable.
Where you went off the track is in predicting NFL greatness, particularly someone like Steve Young. It just doesn't work that way. 
Here's a list of a few recent Heisman winning QBs. Tell me which ones equal Steve Young:
Robert Griffin III (he actually might have a chance, but its early and longevity matters)
Cam Newton (Eh. Maybe. I don't see it but I wouldn't laugh you out of the room)
Sam Bradford
Tim Tebow
Troy Smith
Matt Leinert
Jason White
Carson Palmer
Eric Crouch
Chris Weinke
Danny Wuerffel
Charlie Ward
Gino Torretta
Ty Detmer
Andre Ware
Vinny Testeverde
See what I mean? If your argument is that Manziel can improve year to year and if he does he'll be a truly special college player- one of the all time greats- then you can make a case. I don't agree, but your case is logical. If your argument is that he is going to be an NFL player who is at Steve Young's level or better, you're really out there. Sure, it MIGHT happen, but  the odds are really, really, really slim. 

onetwentyeight's picture

Again, your argument would be valid if this was Manziel's Jr or Sr season. As we all know, until this decade the Heisman wasn't GIVEN to underclassmen. So all those guys you listed won the Heisman towards the ends of their college careers. A lot of them also were pro flops. I don't think its contradictory to say Manziel, by winning the Heisman his Freshman year, is already "ahead of the curve" so to speak of ALL the guys you listed. You've just put together a very comprehensive list of all the guys who peaked towards the end of their college careers and only then were they "Good enough" to win the Heisman.
 
But if a guy comes along, and in his FIRST year already surpasses or matches the level that all these listed guys reached in their 3rd/4th years, then what does that say about him? I think it goes beyond being a special College player. Special college players win Heismans at the end of their time. Someone who goes on to have an unprecedented career at every level would win the Heisman as a freshman. 

cplunk's picture

I think my argument is valid regardless of what season Manziel is in. My argument is that college success is simply not related to NFL success, and therefore a statement that Manziel is going to perform at a Steve Young level in the pros is a statement of opinion and quite debatable.
Manziel had some amazing stats this season, but even if he were to have those same stats or better for the next three years that simply doesn't indicate much about his NFL career.
Even if you're right and Manziel does continually improve at every stage, I still don't think you can argue his "floor" is Steve Young. Steve Young is one of the fifteen greatest NFL QBs of all time. It is insanely difficult to get to that level. It takes more than talent; football smarts, inflapibility, being drafted into the right situation, having the right NFL coaches, having good enough teammates around, not being injured, etc, etc.
You think Manziel is great- there's nothing wrong with that. All I'm saying is that you are far, far understimating the gap between a great college season and being Steve Young.

DetroitBuckeye's picture

We were arguing the heisman trophy not whether he is a freshman or not.  It's irrelevant yeah it makes it more impressive for him but it doesn't really matter in terms of the trophy.  Also most players who are physical freaks in college and have huge seasons early in their careers generally don't improve that much.  Look at Tim Tebow's sophmore season he never again came close to that.

 
johnblairgobucks's picture

hard to hold the OSU fan base in the wrong for discrediting Manziel's Heisman accomplishment, when that fan base's team's players and accomplishments were discredited nationally for actions done by former players and coaches.

DaiTheFlu's picture

Great post, William. Your graphic validates what many of us have stated in this thread. Aside from one great game against Bama, it was cupcake city. SEC, baby!

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

onetwentyeight's picture

A&M played 4 teams with winning records, we played 5. What was your point again? Should we throw out all of Brax's numbers against "cupcakes"? 
EVERYONE plays cupcakes nowadays... (oh no, but I bet the B1G 'cupcakes' are just more gritty and tough and hard nosed. OK)

onetwentyeight's picture

I misread. Against BCS AQ teams with winning records, as per that graphic, we've played the exact same amount of teams with winning records as A&M. 4.