Home Field Advantage

dja.ohio's picture
June 15, 2011 at 10:02p
26 Comments

Exercising your Second Amendment right to bear arms adds a new intangible teams will need to consider when entering Ohio Stadium. 

Ohio Lawmakers Vote to Allow Guns in Bars, Stadiums

A law allowing Ohioans with concealed-carry permits to bring guns to bars, restaurants and stadiums is on its way to Gov. John Kasich.

...

Kasich indicated he will sign the bill. "I'm for the Second Amendment," he said of the right-to-bear-arms amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

The law will allow people who have concealed-carry permits to bring them into bars, restaurants and other establishments that serve beer, wine and liquor as long as they are not drinking.

Comments

Maestro's picture

Mark Ohio off the list of places to live in the future.

vacuuming sucks

William's picture

Considering that 80% of murders in the United States happen in states that don't allow for concealed carrying, this can only be seen as a step forward.

Conroy's picture

What?  Only three states don't allow for concealed carry....

William's picture

Scratch that, meant require permit to carry. "25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" -- Andrew Ford

Conroy's picture

I would like to see some stats. 

yrro's picture

I actually wouldn't be surprised.

Most gun violence in this country happens as a result of gang violence in inner cities. Most of that is in LA, Baltimore, Chicago, New York, Washington DC... essentially all the places that have strict gun control. Most of the states that allow permit-less carry (which, btw, Ohio is one of those, if we're talking about open carry) are more rural states, where crime is naturally lower.

I'm not really sure that it's a causative relationship, though. I'd imagine more that increased gang violence and urbanization causes people to want to bans guns more...  whether it does any good or not.

btalbert25's picture

Go outside of the cities in any state and see how much gun violence there is.  Sure LA, DC, New York and Chicago have high rates of gun violence, but so do Cincinnati, Houston, Cleveland, Dallas, Columbus and Atlanta.  Where the comparison should come is gun violence in the counties that are influenced by a major urban center between states with strict gun control against those without. 

As you said, the gun violence usually revolves around gang and drug activity.  Every major city has that problem.  I have friends that act as if going to a certain neighborhood means putting your own life at risk. I maintain that most violence in this area is pre meditated and directed.  There are some bystanders that sometimes get caught up in it, but the majority of that crime in those areas is not random. 

Because of this, I don't ever feel the need to carry a gun with me in Northern KY.  I'm not going to high risk places.  I'm not dealing or buying drugs either.  I'm going to Home Depot, the Florence Mall, and the Library.  Sometimes, I have to venture to Kroger.  I just don't need the sense of security that others feel they do.  I know someone who always talks about having a pistol with him.  He always feels like he needs it because people want to harm him or his stuff.  I just don't feel that way and I don't ever want to.  I also don't own a gun, and don't feel like I need to have it with me.

All of that being said, I don't have problems with people owning or carrying.  That's their business not mine.  I am not crazy about them being allowed in bars/clubs/stadiums though.  People are volatile and at bars and even the stadium, you don't have to drink to have clouded judgement, and I just don't feel it's appropriate for weapons to be in the mix.  If that means I'm pissing on the constitution then so be it.

btalbert25's picture

Those stats don't suprise me much either especially when the majority of those 25 states are Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, and other states that make up what 1/10th of the population in the united states.  Of course those states are going to account for only 1/5th of the murders.  There's no one in those states. 

yrro's picture

Not sure if you noticed, but I'm agreeing with you. 

Just saying that's why these kinds of statistics can be used to support almost anything, when in reality, it's something entirely different that's causing it. Just looking at the effects of the existence of a city on crime... Idaho as a state has about the same population as the Columbus metro area. Columbus isn't a particularly dangerous town compared to some in the US, but there are 9 times as many murders in Columbus as there are in the whole state of Idaho. I can almost completely assure you that that isn't because of gun freedom or gun control.

 

Colby3333's picture

Fickell should strap a 6-shooter on his hip while pacing the sidelines.......his holster should say in big letters, "Compliance Dept"

theDuke's picture

+2 TDs and a 2 pt conversion

theDuke

btalbert25's picture

Nothing like a day of drinking and tailgating capped off by an argument at gunpoint with an opposing team's fan. 

Maestro's picture

Are there going to be breathilizers on their guns?  How are they going to know if a conceal and carry person is not drinking?

vacuuming sucks

yrro's picture

How do you know that drunk people aren't carrying already? Does your tailgate include a metal detector?

William's picture

Does this mean there are going to be some stadium pops at kickoff?

yrro's picture

Just a few clarifications on this.

OSU stadium is still off-limits because OSU campus bans concealed carry. Campus carry is another issue that 2nd amendment activists have been working on.

Over 40 states allow people to carry into restaurants that serve alcohol. Over 20 allow carry in bars. Many of these states *do* allow you to have a drink while carrying, as long as you are under the legal limit. In Ohio even one drink is a felony offense.

Bars are still, like other establishments, allowed to ban guns themselves with a cheap sign in the window. They'll just lose any CCW permit holding customers.

As for enforcement - I imagine it's not going to be any different than it is now. Almost no bar I've been to checks for concealed weapons. Hell, even the stadiums don't check in a way that would find anything. It's exactly as illegal to drink and be armed as it was before, the only difference is if you are playing designated driver you no longer have to leave your pistol in the car. Which is kind of nice, considering the walk back to the parking lot for some clubs I've been to.

 

Denny's picture

A few years ago when I went to a game at Gund Arena we had to walk through metal detectors on the way in. Then again, it didn't detect the Arby's Giant Roast Beef sandwich that I was carrying in my coat, still in the wrapper. But it *did* detect my buddy's pack of gum.

Taquitos.

Bucksfan's picture

I don't know how any of you could be defending this decision by our lawmakers.  Cincinnati and Cleveland in no way have ever demonstrated that their fans and citizens are responsible enough to deem this decision safe.  Paul Brown Stadium has a jerk line installed so you can call and report beligerent idiots.  Cleveland Browns fans hurl beer bottles at Santa Claus.  Yeah, let's add guns into the mix!  AWESOME SHOW, GREAT JOB!

William's picture

Allowing guns to be carried in a public place isn't going to cause a problem. The idiots who get wasted will cause problems. Instead of limiting gun ownership, why not further limit alcohol consumption? Alcohol causes much more of a problem than firearms do.

Bucksfan's picture

An absurd claim, since alcohol is allowed now, and so far guns haven't been.  So your stats wouldn't show that guns cause a problem because they aren't yet part of the equation.  What exactly would guns be deterring anyway?  What's the point of allowing citizens to carry guns into a situation where alcohol use is rampant?  Is the citizen unsafe under the current no-gun situation?

Thousands of people frequent sporting events all the time, and the necessity to keep a gun on you simply isn't there.  Firearms never make a situation MORE safe.  Arizona has a concealed weapon allowance, and there were citizens that were carrying guns at that Safeway last January.  That did not stop a person from shooting 10 people, and he was not subdued by the firearm of any of those citizens who were carrying.  That's one example.  But the stats show that there is not less gun crime in states that allow concealed weapons.  There might not be more, but there certainly isn't less.

yrro's picture

Guns NEVER making a situation more safe is untrue on its face, as I could point you to thousands of anecdotal situations. Here's a short list, just of concealed license holders in Ohio whose stories made the news http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Ohio-CHL-holders-acting-in-self-defense

We could argue whether there is a net benefit to society for days, because it's incredibly hard to show proof one way or the other. But that doesn't mean that they are never individually useful.

But there is one simple fact - your only real increased danger from someone legally carrying is the small possibility of an accidental discharge. Because someone who has so little regard for law and human life as to murder you in broad daylight is not going to be concerned with getting a license and changing the law. And the *incredibly* low crime rate for conceal permit holders bears this out. Throwing beer bottles is a very long step away from actively attempting to MURDER someone in a situation where you most definitely will be caught and go to jail for the rest of your life. What you are saying is that you think the people at your sporting events are entirely willing to kill you where you stand, but only refrain because strangling you to death or throwing you off the bleachers would be too much effort.

So... on the accidental discharge... they are not only fairly rare (especially among guns that are just sitting in a holster, not being cleaned or fired), but they are especially rare when compared to the hundreds of thousands to million defensive uses or handguns (even the most anti-gun estimates come in at over 800,000 per year). I'd say that a young woman walking home from the game has quite a good reason to want something to defend herself with, and she's not putting you in any significant danger by doing so.

Bucksfan's picture

Dude, no.  What I'm asking for is very simple.  I need you to show me statistic-ridden data as to the need for guns in bars and in stadiums in the state of Ohio.  Just use numbers to show me why.

I've got some for you.  The state of Nevada is ranked 5th in gun-related death rate.  In Nevada, one out of every 3 households has a gun.  More guns = more gun-related death.  Plain as day.

You can go down the list: http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000

It's not up for debate, really.  The states with the most guns / worst gun control = most gun-related deaths.  Look at the bottom 10...virtually all New England states.  Those are some of the most densely-populated areas of the country, but they have the strictest gun control.  The worst 10?  Mostly the Southeastern and Southwestern states, who have the worst gun control laws. 

We don't need Ohio to relax its gun laws simply because Ohioans like guns.  We don't make the speed limit 100 because Ohioans like to drive fast, and we don't make the legal BAC limit 2.00 because Ohioans like to drink.  That's just not a good enough reason to open the state to more unnecessary gun-related deaths, which WILL happen.  It's going to make Ohioans less safe.

yrro's picture

Here's your statistic - that graph is entirely bullshit. http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html "Gun deaths" include suicides, which are easily the majority of gun deaths. People are not going to wait pretty please for legal permission to bring their gun into a bar to shoot themselves. And suicide rates in general are not correlated with looser gun control - just what portion of them are gun suicides. If a guy shoots himself or jumps off a bridge, he's just as dead.

Study after study by people who actually bothered to do more than a five minute google search have come up... honestly completely inconclusive of whether gun control makes more or less of a difference.. Why? Because most gun crimes are committed with illegal guns anyway, and are committed against other people who are not allowed to own guns. Over 50% of murders are criminal on criminal.

Here's something that definitely clear, though - concealed license holders commit crimes at about the lowest rate of anyone in society. Lower than teachers, cops, and preachers. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&add...

I don't know if this will lead to a real drop in crime - there just aren't that many people who carry. But for those who do, it's going to make them safer, as well as anyone in the room with them.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

As for why you might want to carry into a bar, remember that being able to carry into a facility as as much about being able to carry to and from the facility. Check out the crime map for around campus:

http://www.spotcrime.com/oh/columbus

Bucksfan's picture

I don't know what you intended on proving with your suicide statistic, if you look at that same chart, the Firearm Homicide Rate is 3.72 for America.  There are only 6 other countries that have a firearm homicide rate greater than 1:  Estonia, Brazil, Mexico, Portugal, Northern Ireland and Italy, and only Estonia, Brazil, Mexico and N. Ireland are higher than the U.S. rate.  Estonia and Italy are organized crime Meccas, Brazil and Mexico have some of the worst law enforcement in the world coupled with the worst drug trade situations, and N. Ireland is, well, drunk as hell....with guns.

The point is that in this country, guns are not making anyone safer.  The U.S. has the most guns per household, and one of the worst firearm homicide rate.  Other countries who have a lot of guns per household, like Canada for example, have one of the lowest firearm homicide rate.  My point is that IN THIS COUNTRY, firearms don't make people safer.  If you want to live in a country where firearms don't correlate so dramatically with firearm-related homicide, then move somewhere else.  America is not made safer with more guns.  It's less safe.

Concealed license holders' crime rate is irrelevant, because you haven't shown what % of the crimes they commit is firearm homicide.

What will make you safer is having cops on scene.  You want a safer stadium?  Beef up security.  Stadiums don't need to be made safer by people who feel they can take the law in their own hands.  You don't need to allow people carry guns into a bar and allow them to get drunk with a gun on them.  Guns+alcohol = unsafe situation.

William's picture

Never said stadium in my most recent post, I did say public place. You bring up the point about guns not making a public place safer, yet maybe you are unaware of the recent shooting in a Long Island Pharmacy were four people were gunned down. The store owner of course did not have a gun yet the the criminal did. So you're telling me that if any of those people were carrying they may not have been safer? Also gun ownership has been mandated in the city of Kennesaw, Georgia for some time, and there the crime rate has plummeted since. I wonder why?

Bucksfan's picture

But stadiums and bars are what this bill is allowing.

I don't understand your story about Long Island.  In your example, there was a shooting and the store owner did not have a gun.  In my story there was a mass shooting despite shoppers on scene having guns on them.  In both cases, guns or no guns, shootings occurred regardless.  But the fact that you bring a gun into the equation in any facet inherently lessens the safety of all, even if it's just by increasing your risk of an accidental shooting (which do happen, just ask Plaxico Burress).  So, if anything, you've helped me with my argument.

I looked into your Kennesaw stats.  Crime did decrease the year following that law in 1982, but according to sources listed on Wikipedia, statistical analysis over a much longer period of time have not indicated that the law significantly impacted home burglaries in that town.

Plus, that's one small town in the middle of nowhere, Georgia.  That does not mean that whatever law works well for a small community are adaptable to a major metropolitan area like Cleveland or Cincinnati or Columbus.