What's with all of the hate???

buckuar's picture
December 10, 2013 at 3:38p
50 Comments

I'm, as my profile states, a passionate, yet rational Buckeye fan.  I realize that, no matter which team anyone roots for, there will always be rival fans that will "hate" the other team and its fans.  Lord knows, I can't STAND TTUN.  Having said that, I'm noticing a steady increase over the last 10 years of a steady bile-spewing majority that makes it difficult to be a "fan" of any team, let alone the ever-hated Buckeyes. 

As an example, Monday, when I sat down in my office, my boss, who is a "fan" of BOTH Florida State AND Miami (I live in Florida, go figure...) promptly walked through my door and said, "Ohio State SUCKS.  They are the worst team I've ever seen.  We would've hung 70 on that s*itty defense.  I'm glad WE (meaning FSU of course) get to play a REAL team and get a REAL NC Game!"  I started to argue that we had just lost ONE game in our last 25 tries, that we had some bad play calls and that we were BEATEN by a better team on THAT day but you can't speak rationally to people who refuse to know what they are talking about. 

But...  It got me thinking...  What is it about the Buckeyes that cause this vitriol and HATE?  What is it about the team and school (even prior to UFM) that causes people to react to them this way?  If you get on any article ABOUT Ohio State on any site out there and read the comments that follow, there is a TONE, which I would characterize as VIOLENT, directed at Ohio State and any fan that DARES to post on said article.  Even if it's a simple, "Go Bucks" that person is attacked from ALL sides. 

It all seems to have really come to a head since the SEC started it's run of dominance over the world against us and hasn't ceased since.  2006 was a nightmare.  Not only for Buckeye fans, but really for the entire college football landscape.  It wasn't supposed to happen, but it did.  The whole system was abuzz...  But then, God forbid, the Buckeyes made it AGAIN in 2007.  We shouldn't have been there.  I don't know anyone on here that would say that we did.  We backed in and it looked that way.  We've been the red-headed step child ever since.  But WHY? 

Why doesn't Oklahoma, with their stellar 3-5 BCS Bowl record (1-1 in NCG's) since 1999 get the same hate that Ohio State does?  I guess 6-3 in BCS games (1-2 in NCG's) is worse?  Where is the spewing of hate toward our Ohio brother, "Big Game" Bob?  People say it's because we win, but as a Buckeye fan, I don't HATE Alabama.  I appreciate what Saban and the other SEC coaches have been able to do over the last decade.  It is truly amazing.  Do I want it to end?  Absolutely.  But do I get on message boards and "beat" on them?  No.  I shake my head in amazement as they get to ANOTHER NCG and have a chance at winning it. 

Hell, after the game on Saturday, I posted on my FB account, "Congrats Auburn fans.  You're welcome.  Now, Go 'Noles."  I was immediately ATTACKED by my "friends" that are SEMINOLE fans...  I am ROOTING for FSU to win that game... 

I'm just trying to understand where it comes from.  I didn't attend Ohio State.  I went to school in Athens, but that never changed what the Buckeyes have meant to me.  I know we have our own fair share of "extreme" fans that take things a bit to the brink sometimes, but I live in SEC country.  I've seen crazy and unreasonable across the faces of fans and am constantly attacked for my office that is decorated with Buckeye memorabilia and my degree from Ohio U.  I'm proud of where I'm from, but it's getting OLD being attacked for liking a university and its football team.

What's with all of the hate?  Opinions and comments are welcome.  These are just some observations I've made over the last few days and needed to put them out there to people who might understand.  I'm not whining.  I just don't understand that kind of "fandom."

Go Bucks. 

 

Comments

Bucks43201's picture

Agreed...I am so sick of the hatred from fans and most of the media feeling justified because we lost A (CLOSE) game to a (REALLY, REALLY) good Michigan State team --- now we "suck".
Really?
Everyone is so dismissive. 24 games in a row. We lost a game we probably should have won, it was closer than 10 points. It was a hard-fought game, not a blowout. And, it was against the #1 defense in the country! But, the sentiment is "Ohio State sucks". And it's dismissive as "see, I told you so - Ohio State sucks...Florida State would kill them...Auburn would...Alabama would, etc."
Really sick of it...just try to ignore it, but it's hard.
We know how special this team is, and we know they probably should have won. But, they didn't. By all means though, they don't suck. They're still an elite team, albeit with bad defensive breakdowns at the worst times. I'd still take that offense against anybody's.

"You win with people." - Woody Hayes

sharks's picture

Success breeds envy and talk radio breeds lunatics. That's my guess.

The postgame show is brought to you by... Christ, I can't find it. The hell with it...

buckeyefanatic's picture

Most sports fans hate a winner.  When I was a kid, people hated ND.  People largely love or hate the Yankees.  (I think)
I consider it a compliment that we're so disliked.
*shrug*

How many batteries does it take to beat Michigan football?   1AA
Want to beat Michigan? There's an App for that.

ToledoBuckeye's picture

ESPN.  That is all.

"Anything easy ain't worth a damn." - Woody Hayes
 

Barnsey69's picture

That. Is correct.

Thank the Maker that I was born in Ohio, cradle of coaches, US Presidents, confederate-stomping Generals, and home of The Ohio State University Football Buckeyes!

BuckeyeAtHeart22's picture

It's us.  It's hard to look in the mirror but it's us.  And screw the rest of them for thinking they could even keep up with our hatred of non-rivals such as Notre Dame, Penn State, the entire SEC, etc...
Also, we are confident in our team and we are never afraid to show it.  Never once has a friend given me shit about OSU possibly losing without me saying "Go to hell, Urban/Tressel can outcoach anybody".  I have seen fans of almost every other school waver in their belief that their team can always achieve victory on any given Saturday.  We love the Buckeyes and they love to hate us.
For instance Oklahoma fans! What a bunch of sissies and there are a bunch out here in Colorado.  When the game is close heading into the 4th quarter they start rationalizing the loss beforehand instead of white knuckling it and watching till  the end.

buckuar's picture

Well, if faith, as a fan, in your team/coach causes hatred and other people to turn into venom spewing animals, why aren't they spewing at the likes of Alabama and Florida and even Notre Dame, for that matter?
That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.  I could understand if I believed that it was our fan base that was causing the hatred, but that's not what I see.  I see FSU fans absolutely DESPISING Florida fans, but they'll watch the Gator game and give them their props on the overall game or play.  We don't even get that much from people.  It's an instant hatred. 
It's like the gates of Hell are positioned along the Olentangy. 
As far as the ESPiN perspective, I understand how that looks, but even they can't cause some of the hatred I've seen spewed across ALL of the various networks and sites regarding Ohio State. 
Tattoogate is a perfect example...  Why was there such an outcry for the "death penalty" and all of the other penalties for all of the GOD AWFUL things that they did with their own property, but we've not heard anything regarding Miami, Oregon, Alabama and the other "offenders?"
It's just bizarre and I'm just trying to see it from other people's perspectives, so I appreciate the opinions. 

OSBuckeye222's picture

I think, at least from the stand point as to why the SEC hates us so much (I live in Georgia), it's because many times, especially in the last 10 years or so, Ohio State has or has had the chance to stand in the way of the SEC's Success.
Meyer had to lobby to get his Gators in to the 2006 NCG. I don't think that Florida was that much superior to us. I just believe they prepared better for the game and it showed. All season long the Buckeyes heard about how good they were and how no one could beat them. They already took down two #2's, what was one more?
In the 2007 NCG, Ohio State had an opportunity to beat LSU, but they lost it when they quit running Wells (sounds familiar). Wells was racking up yards until we fell behind and I think Tressel panicked and decided to start throwing the ball more. Stupid penalties gave LSU first downs on drives they had them stopped and then LSU would move the ball down the field and put points on the board. The Buckeyes tried to play too hard to prove that they could play against the SEC and it cost them.
SEC county then decided that Ohio State was inferior to them and in combination the B1G because Ohio State basically ran the conference at that point.
After the 2010 season and Ohio State was slated to play Arkansas in the Sugar bowl, Everyone I knew was saying how bad the Razorbacks were going to kick our butts, but when that didn't happen. They turned to well "Ohio State blew a huge lead and nearly lost", or "Arkansas isn't a traditional power in the SEC so you really didn't beat a good SEC team"!! This win also ended the winless streak against SEC opponents in bowl games. Of course, that didn't last long with the NCAA vacating the win. And because of the "scandal", it lead many SEC fans to believe that the only way Ohio State could hang with them was by "cheating".
The Gator bowl following the 2011 season wasn't really success for either team, but the fact that even while both teams were lousy, the Gators were able come away victorious!
Now on to the 2012 season. The Buckeyes go undefeated, as does Notre Dame. If Ohio State were not on a bowl ban, It would have been tOSU vs ND in the NCG. Which in turn would have left Alabama out of the NCG, and last season would not have ended with Alabama winning it's second straight national title and the beginning of this season starting with them going for their third.
So here we are, 2013. Ohio State 12-0 going to play in the B1G championship game, and with a win it had the potential to keep the SEC out of the championship game again. However, that did not occur and here we are with Auburn going to play FSU. the SEC going for it's 8th straight title and the state of Alabama going for it's 5th straight. (sigh...)
The conference's record in bowl games and in OCC games against other BCS conference schools has not helped either. I agree with the comparison to Oklahoma. I have asked several times why they aren't as scrutinized as the Buckeyes and I rarely got an answer. I'm still clueless as to how they got the "at large" bid in to the Sugar Bowl.

BuckeyeAtHeart22's picture

Well to be fair Alabama is gaining ground on us in the hate department.  But since 1998 we have been to every BCS bowl game, have won the Fiesta, Sugar, Rose and National Championship bowl games, and are in the top 10 9 out of every 10 years.  I would hate us too if I didn't love us.

BME_Buckeye's picture

Fickell to texas

Look closely, because the closer you think you are, the less you will actually see.

 

OSUBias's picture

That would explain why Texas fans have a right to hate us, but what about the rest?

Shitter's full

Maestro's picture

I think I might bring a little bit of a unique perspective to this discussion.  I had the pleasure of helping to run a college football website for 4 years.  We had a unique blend of staff members.  2 Florida fans, 2 Bama fans, a Texas fan, a Utah fan, a scUM fan, an Ole Miss fan, a WVU fan and myself.  
On the site the Buckeye fans were almost always the most prolific in membership, comments and discussion.  We were a vocal group, but a respectful group for the most part.  We were largely disliked as a group because of the team we were affiliated with.  This is certainly not a unique situation to that website but it was very apparent, and as you mention in your essay it occurs just about anywhere you spend time on the internet.
As the only Buckeye fan on the staff I was constantly in a difficult spot.  The hatred that was thrown at the Buckeye fans/team was more fervent than toward any other fanbase/team.  Bama and Florida certainly had there fair share of detractors, but OSU was always a lightning rod.
I was never able to completely wrap my head around it, but I will say it was almost universal.  The hate came from the West Coast to the Southeast.  I think a lot of it comes from a mix of jealousy, inferiority complexes, and a feeling that OSU had been handed their status among CFB elite on a silver platter somehow.  Certainly a lot of it comes from people who know very little about CFB history and only remember the back to back losses in NCG's.  You will never be able to convince people of that ilk that OSU football isn't "over-rated" (man I hate that word).
My hope on the site was always that our group of OSU fans could change some people's feelings about how they interact with Buckeye fans, but I quickly learned that I was fighting a losing battle in that quest.  
My advice to you would be to be the best fan you can be.  Be respectful and above the fray as much as possible.  You can't control others' biases/perceptions/emotions so just carry on supporting your favorite team in the best way that you know how.  Go Bucks!!!

vacuuming sucks

doodah_man's picture

Or...you just just embrace the hate.

Jim "DooDah" Day
It is hard to play dirty against a man who picks you up.

TennesseeBuckeye's picture

What hate, Mark May and the the bozo's are picking tOSU in their Bowl.
They're now talking about the awesome 24 winning streak and believe it it or not HOW Tough it was to pull off.
Ohio State is a Northern team that has had success. These people down here still talk about the war (no not  WWII WWI but the Civil War and hate Yankees). They know Sherman and Grant came from Ohio. Now ESPiN is in CT, but they are the AssEC Network along with CBS so they poor it on for their conference of choice. That hate is never going away!

I may not be able to outsmart too many people, but I can outwork 'em.
Woody Hayes

BuckeyeAtHeart22's picture

When you put it that way, why do we care what a bunch of uneducated fellers who want nothing more than to be plantation owners with hordes of slaves?

fanfarris's picture

I remember Brent Mussberger once commenting on an OSU game VS LSU,i believe its the cotton ball,not sure though , and Bruce was the coach then with his northern hat on.It was before the start of the game when both teams refused to come out of the tunnel for whatever reason.Brent comment was "Folks this  is North against South ". So yes there is some truth to what you just wrote.

you
 

Eddie314's picture

I think a lot of this hate also stems from what many, not from the state of Ohio, perceive as a blown pass interference call in 2003 Fiesta Bowl vs. Miami (although many seem to forget the numerous other blown calls against Ohio State earlier in the game).  Many people from the south feel like Miami was unfairly screwed out of that title (again they forget that Miami was out played for most of the game).  Couple that with the Florida and LSU losses for titles and so began the "Ohio State sucks" comments and their justification for 2002.  I say embrace that hate and fuck the haters.  Just like Urban likes angry players with chips on their shoulders we as fans should be no different. Our time at the top of the mountain is fast approaching. Go Bucks.

armybucknut's picture

Jealousy I think, only school with a two time heisman winner, tied for first in overall heisman winners, 7 recognized nc's unlike Bama's 15 ( 9 ) recognized. I could go on, embrace the hate it is utter jealousy

"Illegitimi non carborundum"

Catch 5's picture

That's not quite right.  The 15 titles that Bama claims are all recognized.  In fact, the NCAA recognizes 20 Titles for Bama as they (NCAA) recognize many organizations prior to 1945.  Five of those are not claimed by Alabama.
The 9 titles you reference are AP titles only - of which OSU only has 4.

Make their asses quit! - Nick Saban

armybucknut's picture

I believe you are picking straw out of hay man, if that is the case, when you catch Yale on NC's I'll retract my statement.

"Illegitimi non carborundum"

southernstatesbuckeye's picture

Buckuar:  The hate is simple. 
FANS hate us because they want to know what it feels like to be the juggernaut over the long haul.  Most other fans root for teams that spring up and are great for a season, then fade into a decade of fecal spore.  The Buckeyes, as evidenced by the BCS records, have really been the most dominant team in the entire BCS era, even though Alabama threatened for but a few years.  Even in the 90s, and back into the 70s and beyond...we have been mingling at the top of the heap.  Other fan bases crave that consistency.
     And with the advent of the internet and social media, it brings people closer together even while they're farther apart...hence, the more intensified "collective hate" phenomenon.
MEDIA hates us and loves us.  Whatever puts money in their pocket, they're down for it.  It's only the fault of the masses...who flock to the altars of these charlatans...that their opinions are shaped and modified to a narrative that continues to line pockets.  As corrupt as the system is, it is here to stay in one form or another.  Get used to it.  Fight it in whatever manner most pleases you, or sit back in your chair and chuckle at the bobble headed bean counters of the pundit industry.  After all, it is, indeed, humorous.
TEAMS hates us because we most often kick their asses.  That's not difficult to understand.  We applaud that kind of hate.  And we want it to continue.
EMBRACE THE HATE.

brylee's picture

You could also throw in how well our basketball team has played over the last several years, which adds to the overall dominance in major sports.

Haybucks's picture

Buckuar, your boss is a bandwagoner.  How can a true FSU fan be a Miami fan and vise versa?  It's like being a tOSU fan and a ttun fan.  Can't be done and be a true fan.  Don't let it get you down. Your boss will fall off the bandwagon when it hits the first bump. 

The time to stop talking is when the other person nods his head affirmatively, but says nothing. - Henry S. Haskins

 

Whoa Nellie's picture

Why they hate us:
We are the biggest fan base in college sports.
We are the most loyal, passionate fan base in college sports.
Our teams are always contending.
We don't mind telling people how great we are.
One is the loneliest number.  When you're on top of the mountain, everyone else want to knock you down.
How to deal with it:
Our only "problem" is wanting to be liked and respected.  Since that isn't going to happen, you have to either embrace the hate, or simply ignore everyone else.  Personally, I vow to not give a damn what anyone else thinks about my teams.  I don't need their admiration or respect.  FTW!

“Don’t fear criticism. The stands are full of critics. They play no ball. They fight no fights. They make no mistakes because they attempt nothing. Down on the field are the doers, they make mistakes because they attempt many things.”

fanfarris's picture

" I don't care if people of Rome love me.I only care if They fear me "
Caligula,emperor of Rome.

you
 

allinosu's picture

I've lived in several other states and the general feelings is, "I hate Ohio state fans, they never shut up about their football team and they are everywhere".  My wife talked to a guy from dish because we were having a problem before a game and he told ask her outright if she was a buckeye before she told him which game she was concerned about.

Oyster's picture

The jersey and buckeye necklace are dead giveaways though.

May you R.I.P. Otsego, but know this. Gaylord Rocks!

Oyster's picture

So?  I could care less what other people think.

May you R.I.P. Otsego, but know this. Gaylord Rocks!

SOF_Buckeye's picture

Minor point: Oklahoma is 3-5 in the BCS; and 1-3 in championship games (2000 W vs FSU; 2003 L vs LSU; 2004 L vs USC; 2008 L vs Florida).

"The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender." Woody Hayes

dallavise's picture

We are the best program in the country that is not in the SEC.  You could argue Texas, but I would kill that argument.. Anyway, we don't fit the  ESPN moneygrab storyline, so that explains the media, and we have the at the very worst the top 2 fanbase in the country.  What other team is also hated?  Notre Dame, who also has a top 2 fanbase.  Those are the reasons... IMO. 

InvertMyVeer's picture

We can't possibly be as obnoxious as Notre Dame fans, right??

Football is complicated...

OSUnathen's picture

Q-Who has one of the most successful overall records in the past 15 years? A-OSU. Q-Who has the largest fan-base worldwide? A-OSU. I think that with great success comes great envy. 

Liening's picture

Who do we hate?  I see plenty of hate spewed on 11W for the SEC, Mark May, UM, etc.  Why would we be surprised when the hate is returned?  The whole hate thing, including for UM, is IMHO way overdone.  Hating a rival, just for being a rival, is immature and low class.  It reflects poorly on the OSU fan base.  

GLiening

Buckeyevstheworld's picture

Hating a rival, just for being a rival, is immature and low class.

Wait, what?

"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.

Oyster's picture

You aren't from around here, are you?
(and after reading your profile, that actually seems to be the case)

May you R.I.P. Otsego, but know this. Gaylord Rocks!

KingsRite's picture

Some of the comments made by the haters are just ludicrous:
1. We cheat
2. We pay our players
3. We never win big games
4. OSU fans are obnoxious
5. We will forever play in a weak conference
6. Our Head Coach is a cheat
7. Our Head Coach is a liar
8. Our Head Coach is an actor
9. Our Head Coach is scared of the SEC
10. Our Head Coach is scared of Saban
11. Our Head Coach is scared of Florida
12. We schedule cupcakes every year 
13. We never play anybody
14. We think we're better than everybody else
15. We are the worst academic school
and on and on and on...

“I have yet to be in a game where luck was involved. Well-prepared players make plays. I have yet to be in a game where the most prepared team didn't win.” -Urban Meyer-

BuckGuy003's picture

One I've heard is that people find us obnoxious. Mostly due to the use of "THE" when referring to the university. People hate that and find it pretentious.

Firmthyfriendship's picture

My guesses:
THE and our insistence/correcting of others in including THE in The Ohio State University
"Overrated": killed/lost in BIG non-conference regular season matchups: USC x2, TX x1.
We are everywhere and that in and of itself is annoying to non Ohio State fans.
"Lucked" into the one NC win we have. Haven't beaten anyone "relevant" in the BCS bowls- we've only beaten other "overrated" teams (ND, K. State, Oregon)  The only win against the SEC in a bowl game A) was against an Arkansas team that is mediocre in history i.e. not the perennial powerhouses the other SEC teams are and B) was vacated- the tat 5 were allowed to play and "Would have been completely different had they not been able to play" etc.
Lost, thus proving how "overrated" we are two years in a row against SEC teams in the NC games.
Until we for several years in a row beat top 15 teams in nonconference play and go to and win the playoff games, we will be hated because of the above reasons.
And, no matter what we do the goal posts will be moved.
The above that are in quotes are used to say that's what the national perception/words are...not mine. It is hard to argue though, to be honest, and yet I am constantly defending our greatness to those outside of Buckeye nation.
 

Buckeyevstheworld's picture

And, no matter what we do the goal posts will be moved.

This is the truth.

"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.

OSUBias's picture

We have a lot of things that are annoying to people not in Buckeyenation:
The O-H-I-O thing in the stadium, the OH-IO thing every time you see another Buckeye fan, the idiot faces of our fanbase (Buck-I-Guy, random guille suit moron, fat bald guy, etc), the emphasis on THE in the name, our general condescending tone toward any other marching band, the fact that we care enough about a marching band to brag about it, a HEFTY and loud lunatic fringe, a coach everyone loves to hate (admit it, you all hated him until the minute he took the job), the national highlight failures (Fla ,LSU, USC, etc), TP and the whole tat 5 thing...
I think people dislike us because we're always in contention (everyone hates a winner), but I think all of those things above escalate from dislike to "hate". Just my thoughts.

Shitter's full

buckuar's picture

I appreciate everyone's comments above.  They all make sense in their own right. 
I guess I was just trying to remember living in Ohio and having it all spewed.  It would make sense that with the media (both Television and Online) ramping up so much over the last 15 years, I've only seen it from the "outside."  (I've been in Florida for 14 years...)
I'm not looking to be 'liked" or "wanted" by anyone (media or other fans) it just seems over the top to me directed at OSU.
Again, LOVE the responses above...  I'm going to start posing the same question to people here when they say, "I HATE OSU!"  I'll just ask, "Why?"
And as far as "obnoxious" and "condescending" fans in and around a stadium...  I've been to Ben Hill Griffin.  It is BY FAR the worst place in the world to be if you're not a Gator... 
Go Bucks!

Bucks1's picture

Life on top is tough! Haters goin hate.  GO BUCKS!
 
Seriously a fan of the u and FSU? Tough time with decisions...

"I will pound you and pound you until you quit." - Woody Hayes

GoBucksToledo's picture

People don't hate losers, they feel sorry for them.  People don't feel sorry for OSU.

GoBucksToledo's picture

I only notice this hate against the football team, not the basketball team - with the ludicrous exception of Aaron Craft, how can anyone possibly hate that guy?  Wonder why that is.

Barnsey69's picture

I find it quite ironic that (IMO) the catalyst for this hate and dismissive attitude toward OSU (and the B1G) was the beat-down that Urban put on us in 2006. The subsequent loss the following year just solidified the wave-O-hate, but the Gator debacle started it.

Thank the Maker that I was born in Ohio, cradle of coaches, US Presidents, confederate-stomping Generals, and home of The Ohio State University Football Buckeyes!

BuckeyeAtHeart22's picture

The Buckeyes are like that ex who is the one that got away and now you see her/him everywhere you look.  The Fiesta, Rose, Orange, Sugar and BCS National Championship games.  The Final Four.  In Primetime on Saturday Night.  Plus the sea of Scarlet that we take everywhere.
Plus we are banging Alabama's hot sister on weekends when we aren't touring and he has his suspicions.  This will either end in a redneck wedding or a quadruple homicide but god damn do those southern boys have strong feelings for us.

ColPhiTau's picture

I feel your pain. For 4 years, I worked for IBM in Detroit. Half the office were _ichigan alums, the other half MSU. They hated one another. I was the unifying force - they all hated me. Since 1983, I've lived in Atlanta. My 3 kids went to non-SEC colleges, one even graduated with honors from GaTech (who's headline whenever they play Georgia at home is GEORGIA GRAD GETS JOB). Listen, Ohio State is easy to hate. For the entire state of Ohio and especially Central Ohio, Ohio State is all they have. No pro teams, no real global identity, no tourism per se, no identity for sophistication (which is not true obviously). Ohio State is IT. It's in your blood when you're born. Your folks headed to a 'game' is one of your first memories. THEN you move South which is SOUTH (even though its growth was from those of us transferred here, many from Fortune 500's) and you, being from Ohio, have quite possibly the worst variant of Yankee in the land where the War of Northern Aggression is rumored to be approaching a counter attack and you have NO CHANCE. So do what I do. When someone comes back at you, unfriend them. It hurts them long term more than you know.......GO MY BELOVED BUCKS

Class '66

Scarlet_Lutefisk's picture

Report your boss to HR for creating a hostile workplace environment. *shrug*