This post might be a little late in the relevancy department, but it's a subject that I've been thinking about for a while now and something that comes up every year. I'm talking about player misconduct, but more specifically, the reactions of fans to that same misconduct. In the past year we've seen a wide, wide variety of
on the field incidents,
off the field incidents,
NCAA investigations coming to a head, and players just
plain not showing up for class.
None of these things, while all bad, are particularly surprising for college football; the reality of the situation is that given the sheer size of NCAA football, in both scope and finances, these kinds of things are going to happen from time to time whether we like it or not. But what I'm interested in finding out from you all today is where exactly you draw the line. That is to say, what kind of actions push you over the edge to the point where you can no longer support a player being on the football team that you root for.
For me, I've found that I can be forgiving of a number of youthful indiscretions, maybe in part because I'm pretty young myself. On the other hand, I'm possibly the most boring person on earth, never having taken drugs, driven while intoxicated, or watched a donkey show in Tijuana while tripping out on
mescaline-laced gorilla jerky. Basically I've got those same two or three friends that everyone does and my strategy for maintaining a clean rap sheet is to do the exact opposite of what they would do in any given situation. But maybe because of that, when, say, an otherwise upstanding member of the football team
does something unbelievably stupid, I might be more inclined to forgive them and move on if they are contrite and it doesn't happen again.
Because we've all been at that crossroads at least once or twice in life before. Down one path there are naked ladies and all the vodka you can fit in your truck, and police lights in the distance. Down the other path is grad school, a mortgage, semi frequent showers. It's not surprising that some people have a hard time deciding which path to take.
Where I do draw the line is arrogance. Arrogance can take a lot of different forms. My personal favorite is
huge crazy stacks of cash, but as far as it pertains to the 2010 Ohio State Buckeyes, it more has to do with Duron Carter pretty much just not doing any of the work necessary to actually be the student part of a student-athlete. The Dispatch had
a nice writeup about the services offered to student-athletes at Ohio State, and though I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to almost any freshman given how hard it can be to adjust to college, not many freshmen who have those services available to them take the time to sit down for
an interview with Scout.com after their first academic suspension from football to say this last January 22nd:
Greene: What changes have you made to improve your time management decisions, and how you conduct your business? Carter: "I have a set schedule now for everything in my life, both study time and working out. For me, it's all about focusing on what I need to do, and getting it done. I'm not missing any classes, and I'm turning my assignments in on time. I plan on getting through this, and being ready for spring football. My study habits will stay with me the rest of my time at Ohio State, and this will never happen again."
And:
Greene: In closing, is there anything you want to say to Ohio State fans, or your teammates and coaches? Carter: "I just want to say how sorry I am that I let everyone down, and I promise it will NEVER happen again. I'm back.
I can't speak to how sorry Duron actually felt, although he doesn't seem like a bad guy and I'm sure he felt terrible about having to miss the Rose Bowl. But his subsequent actions
do seem really arrogant in the face of what turned out to be another academic suspension, and for me at least, that's when I have to wish him happy trails and hope that this time he really does figure out what his priorities are.
But that's just me. I'm way more interested in what you think, so here's the $64,000 question (checks will not be honored): Where do you draw the line on player misconduct and say "That kid probably shouldn't be on the team I support"?
Comments
I think guys with repeat offenses do need to be shown the door at some point. There are a lot of high-character, talented kids waiting in the wings to come to OSU.
With Duron though I think him screwing up so bad in his first year may have doomed him for the next. It's hard to say without knowing specifics.
Disrespect to coaches and teammates, multiple academic problems, multiple arrests, etc.
I don't think the donkey show is real. I spent a lot of time in TJ, and never heard a peep about it.
I'm a soft touch when it comes to forgiveness, provided the person in question genuinely regrets his actions and cleans up his act. However, I do think there are some incidents that warrant immediate dismissal, no questions asked. When Jonathan Skeete got busted for selling weed, I wanted him on the first bus (with bars on the windows) heading out of town. I don't get that worked up about players getting caught smoking a joint--in the grand scheme of things it's rather petty. But selling drugs is another matter entirely--IMHO, there's got to be a zero-tolerance policy for that.
Also, anything involving injury to another person should, I think, be grounds for dismissal unless there are very strong extenuating circumstances.
Duron better walk the straight and narrow in Coffeyville. This is the same town that ambushed the Dalton Gang.
Are you sad about the World Cup and Japan.
Ray Small, I was willing to give him a pass the first few times he was in the doghouse but at the point where his dad started talking shit about the program and Tressel, I was done with the kid. It's one thing to be lazy and slack off in the class and on the field once, but 4 years of that, REALLY???
Honestly, I may have thrown out, and forgive me if I get his name wrong, Reynolds when he was strangling the Wisconsin QB on national TV.
While his screw-ups are world class, it was Mo's arguing with coaches on the sidelines that really angered me. Speaking to the media from Tempe complaining about how he couldn't go back to YT for his friends funeral sealed the deal. Talking shit about the school that gave you an opportunity some can only dream of and one that was squandered in the most spectacular way, is unforgivable and everything he did later was irrelevant.
My first trip to TJ during my first month at Camp Pendleton we had a group of guys approach us about buying our way into one.
Mine is all on a case-to-case basis. When a player proves (to me, it's very subjective) that they're too dumb to be in college without football, that's one of them. The other is when they don't realize the opportunity in front of them. For instance, the guys (not just at OSU but anywhere) that fail multiple drug tests. You're essentially getting paid to play college football (and get a degree if you're so inclined) with a chance to make more than 99% of Americans even if you just ride pine the rest of your life. But you just can't resist a few (hundred) tokes? GTFO.
Like chasing down Taylor and stealing back an interception on our way to our 1st championship in years irrelevant? Or were you referring to the guns and ninja swords with the booze?
I was ticked off at the time when #13 openly talked poorly about the school especially with all the other stuff surrounding him at the time. I never participated in the jersey burnings or anything that extreme, but I was disappointed in him. I feel bad for him and hope that during his time spent in prison he has grown and can get his life back together and be a father to his children. Even though he armed rival fans with tons of verbal bashing ammo for years I have long forgiven #13, but I can understand the disdain some may have.
I would could consider selling drugs to be a severe charge too. I am puzzled over your forgiveness for consuming them. I, like the author, have not ever consumed Marijuana or any other controlled substance. To that regard, it is easy for me to say, "Shame on you and keep your act together."
I know that many kids now experiment with stuff. I am not in the right mind of believing that every kid does it so we should just write it off as a minor offense. I believe that at this big of a stage, with all of the money that is being pumped into these guys careers, that they should have to take regular drug tests and keep their bodies clean. I'd prefer that our players be examples to other players and kids that look up to them. They are effectively auditioning for the big time and earning a degree simultaneously.
Should they have a one and done strike policy over consumption? No. But I believe that the first strike should invoke enough punishment to make their stomach turn at the thought of consuming something when confronted by it again.
[Cue the marijuana should be legal argument now]
Good Shizzy note: Great job Ray Small. Seriously, how many ways can a "Rapper" beat about the same subject. Let me see if I can cover the majority of the content: We have Drugs, Sex, Violence, ohhhh let's not forget bad mouthing Law Enforcement. Then there is the ever prevalent money and cars. I think a note needs to be placed in the Shizzy, "Ever wanted to hear Ray rap about his junk?" Click here. I for one, would not.
Man you are boring. I'm boring too, but I didn't get that way until I was almost 30...
LMAO -- you mean you didn't like the line about "it's an everyday thang when you let your nuts hang?" That's poetry!
Yeah I think I closed the window when that line came out. I cannot forget about him quick enough.
I will never feel bad for somone like him. He had a golden opportunity to better his life and his family's life and blew it. The coaches not letting him go back to Youngstown for the funeral was for his own good, and I understand him being upset, but it was the right decision. No one forced the dude to rob anyone, and act a fool. He made his choice and chose to walk away from a promising future. What's worse even yet, he got a shot at the NFL and still chose to act a fool.
I've said since he left, I'll take what he gave us for his one season, it was great and he was undoubtedly the one player that took that team on his shoulders and won some games for the team. Who can forget the Washinton State game, and the strip after the interception. However, I just can't find any way to feel bad for a guy who blew every chance he was given.
I feel bad for anyone who makes poor decisions like that. If you commit a crime of that magnitude then you deserve to lose your freedom, but I still feel bad for them.
There may not be a donkey show in TJ but what about the banana or roll of quearter show in Okinawa?
He stole that line from bone thugs. Staying true to cleveland. Nice, this site needs more hip hop.
You need a toe? I can get you a toe, dude.
I don't see a problem here
Jerm- Son, I taught you better than that. We do have rules to abide by.
If a student athlete were to, say, throw a punch on national television and then challenge an entire section of fans to a fight, wellsir, that's where I draw the line.
That type of shenanigans has no business representing our school or our program.
Although, there may be exceptions... case by case, man.
It's used too much, but is relevant. It depends on the person and the situation.
I'm not one to condone someone based off academics. It's unfortunate and there may be screwing off factors ... but it could also be just plain trouble with academics. In regards to Carter, I seem to remember his dad not especially wanting him at OSU. I think he saw the writing on the wall and knew this would likely happen. Hopefully jr can pull it up and get back.
As far as getting into trouble, as long as they are minor infractions ... I don't have much of an issue. Repeating the pattern I do. Severe criminal acts, I don't have tolerance for.
Even more so, I have more of an issue with some of the parents. I remember Small's dad saying Tressel was trying to ruin his sons life. Can't think of a bigger insult to Tressel and his teacher approach. Small has been given chance after chance. More then he'd get from me.
I'm more worried with the impending departure of Seantrel Henderson from USC, we may be on the radar again. Only trouble.
I figured that Henderson would head toward Miami. I think their environment there is similar to USC and I think that Henderson is looking for flare. Dad wants a rap contract and stated that JT was a little boring. Sounds like a good fit for thug U. Now should he want to play at the shoe I would love to have him. I would be concerned, to say the least, about the baggage he brings and his mentality and ability to represent our team with the standards that JT demands. I have never really heard anything derogatory about him, just his father. Anyone else have any insight into this kids personality and work habbits?
On a side note Michael Vick is in the lime light again for hosting a party where a co-defendant in the dog fighting case of his was shot. No one is listing him as a suspect and reports claim that he left the party 3 minutes prior to the shooting. I won’t pretend to know what happened or assume that Vick was responsible in some way. I can only say that bad shizzy follows his family around and were I JT, I would be hesitant to allow Vick any tutelage of Pryor this summer. I hope that Pryor finds someone with a little better resume and few less [historical] character flaws to admire.
I'm quite forgiving about typical college kid indiscretions as long as they don't do something that's mean spirited and/or demonstrates that their just "bad guys." When the MSU players PLANNED AHEAD OF TIME to jump some frat boys/hockey players, that's unforgivable. I was a little more understanding toward L Blount because the kid sort of lost control, but I still agreed with his long suspension.
On the other hand, to the boyscouts on here: I truly hope every kid in America follows your example and not mine, but I can totally relate to college kids who completely blow off their studies and get caught up in the party lifestyle. I'm never going to wave my finger at those kids, although I believe that they benefit from discipline, structure (wish I would have had that). JT takes the right approach with them, as opposed to the "one strike and yer out" pseudo hard asses out there.
I kept hearing through all the recruiting hoopla last year that Seantrel was a great kid. People talked about how mature he was and that he was handling all the publicity with modesty. I never heard anything negative about the kid until he chose USC over Ohio State. I'm not sure where people are getting the info and attacking his character and supposed trouble he's going to bring. The only flaw is that he trusted Lane Kiffen, but many kids are learning the hard way from making that mistake
I'll be the first to admit that I was no model student. The transition from HS to college wasn't easy for me because I actually had to try to pull decent grades, something I'd never had to do before. Four Kegs, Panaini's and my stint workin the door/ bar backing at tuna didn't help either. So I'm def no boy scout myself.
I tend to be forgiving as well on most things. It would have been awfully tempting for me to take $500, hell $5, from a booster if I was a student athlete because money didn't flow so freely back then. But when it comes to violent crimes, theft, etc those are a big deal and shouldn't be tolerated IMHO.
Seantrel's dad heard that the rap market in Columbus was cornered by Don the rapping bum.
I don't know if I personally am considered a boy scout. (Was a member at an unremembered age) I know my life is considerably different than many other kids. I am no better than anyone else out there. I was fortunate enough to have a no nonsense father that demanded respect and held me accountable for my actions. Punishment was delivered liberally and I had no lack of responsibility. I knew there would be consequences for my actions should I drink and drive or consume narcotics. I cared about my family and wanted my father to respect me. That kept me straight. I don't look down my nose at anyone. I just don't think that it is unreasonable to have high expectations of these college kids. As I posted earlier, one and done for certain offenses is not called for but I don't think we should overlooked even the smallest infractions. (P.S. I was nowhere near perfect but never committed any offense that could be considered criminal)
Football players should get the same chances as other students...many of whom screw up, get put on probation, get kicked out, go to Columbus State, come back (or not). When I was at OSU, half the damn dorm was empty by spring quarter...
We have bums in Columbus? I was from a farm 25 miles south of there and didn't venture into Cbus often. I have lived in Alabama now for the last 13 years and see tons of homeless in the city I live in now. I always thought it got to cold in the winter for the homeless there. The transition from living on the farm to metropolitan living was indeed very shocking. I didn't even know much about Cbus while living there 18+ years.
It's a shame, really, because his dad could have used the quite apropos "Buckeye Offensive Line, It's Seantrel's Time... HELP IS ON THE WAY!!!" line.
:[
I would love to have Seantrel. I don't understand why people think he has so much baggage. All the things I've heard sounds like they came from his dad, and not him. If he ends up in Miami, oh well, but if we could get him, a legacy could begin, and I would really want that.
Good comments. I should clarify, just in case: I didn't mean to suggest that the boyscouts are necessarily the same people as the pseudo-hardasses (that's why I wrote boyscouts "on here" versus hard asses "out there"). The boyscouts are to be commended, whereas the "one strike and yer out" folks need to realize the difference between (family-style) discipline/structure and being reactionary.
Latest word is that Cretin-Derham Hall grad Seantrel Henderson, who was assured by new Southern California football coach Lane Kiffin during recruitment that USC would not receive serious NCAA penalties, is balking at his commitment and now leaning toward Miami, even though he would have to sit out a transfer season.
source:
http://www.twincities.com/ci_1...
already in good shizzy -- delete comment funtion now pls
Kid Cudi perhaps?
That is not what I meant. His talking shit to the coach's and about tOSU publicly to me were bigger transgressions than the false police report and the improper benefits. I was not referring to anything he did on the field. We all know what he did there. I have zero sympathy for him. My dad was a trustee at tOSU until his death in '06. I know how stressful it was after Mo left with the ESPN article and the NCAA investigation that followed it. Andy Geiger retired early and to this day Mo is held up as the poster child for everything that is perceived as wrong with the school. All because a loud mouth lying punk wanted to "get back" at the very people how gave his dumb ass a golden opportunity. He also put his own life and the officer's who tried to subdue him, in danger. He is very lucky he wasn't shot. He is where he is because he is an idiot. If he hadn't stripped the ball from Taylor and helped get us win the NC, you wouldn't care a bit about this loser. If he can turn his life around, great, but I don't suggest he do it in Cols.
Hell, I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock this afternoon... with nail polish
Something like 41% of people between 12 and 21 have tried pot at least once. Seems a bit unreasonable to me to come down too hard on a first offense.
Wow. First off, sorry about you losing your dad, I wasn't trying to drudge up bad memories or anything. I have no inside connections to the school or to #13 to know anything other than what the media reported. Secondly, I didn't say I cared for him, but I do. I care for all people. I said I feel bad for him and hope that he grew and wish that he can become a father for his kids. Ultimately, the system is suppose to help people turn their lives around and I want for him to be able to do that. Any player that played at OSU that made a mistake I wish them well.
That's kind of my thoughts on the guy. I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who had a chance to better his life and those of his loved ones then blew it. He caused a lot of trouble with OSU on his way out, and then he commits a pretty serious crime. These were decisions he made. He could kept his mouth shut, played football, and not broken the law and his life would've been drastically different right now.
It's sad to see such a talent and potential wasted, both for football and his own personal success. He made those choices, and I just can't feel sorry for him. There was no bad luck or ill will that caused his demise, it was all self inflicted.
The guy has a respect problem as seen in the Randy Shannon "gettin my hair did" episode.
sweet rhyme. +infinity
help is indeed on the way
Thank you. My dad was a trustee for 20 years and NOTHING upset him more than what went down with Mo. He had nothing but admiration and respect for Jim Tressel ( who he voted to replace Cooper) and Geiger. His passion for the Buckeyes turned me into the fan I am today, but he said he would have rather lost the NCG than go through the aftermath and there are times when I agree.
Hmmm everyone else is doing it so we should overlook it? I can see if they were committing a criminal act via Robinhood or trying to feed their starving children. This criminal act is only for self gratification, a recreational good time with no regard for the law. Regardless of whether you agree with it or not (I don't like the law) you abide by the law. Let’s look at it on scale. On your left you have a good time getting high, get busted, lose your scholarship and reputation and let your family and teammates down. On the other side you have maybe a little ridicule for being the guy that doesn't do it with the others. You keep all that you are working for and retain the image of someone that others can look up to or aspire to be like. Come on, it is recreational. You can do without it. True it is likely less dangerous than cigarettes or alcohol. I would imagine it still possesses some health risks and risk of dependence. Feel free to correct me on that statement for I have no personal knowledge of it.
Remember that time you had a beer at 18? You're going to prison for it.
Robinhood taught me how to freebase. Then he freed all of Nottingham!
No I don't remember that time I had a beer when I was 18. Not everyone breaks the law.
Okay, academic probation, legal trouble, injuries or just plain and simple poor play I can deal with. It is aggrivating yes, but the game will go on.
The one thing I will never forgive and the player could be an all-american that won a championship, is NCAA violations (ex. Reggie Bush). They are the worst players. they don't care for the fans, they don't care for the school. When this happens there are a lot who are responsible, but none of it ever would happen if the player wasn't demanding money, cheating in classes or talking with the wrong person (ex. Dez Bryant). It's just unexcusable!
I will take 2 Duron Carter's than win a championship and have it taken away because a player broke the rules. Even the dumb ones!
People, this is Ohio State, not Harvard. I know sometimes we like to act like we went to, or are fans of, a school that's on par with the Ivy League. But it just isn't. It's a big state school with the biggest athletic department, and one that spends more money on its football team than any other school. And Tressel is no Woody when it comes to graduating players (Hayes was over 90%). We are bound to sign some not-so-bright students to play football in this era (Rod Smith).
My point is that academic issues are never going to end for a team like Ohio State's. Nor will run-ins with the law, drug use, driving drunk...etc. These things are real issues lots of college kids deal with. I think it's ridiculous to ask the fanbase of some sort of invisible line where we start turning our backs on a player. I turned my back on Alex Boone for his lack of effort during his whole career at Ohio State. Then I found out he was drunk the whole time as a result of a real alcohol problem in that article last week. We NEVER know the whole story.
I've always been sympathetic to Mo Clarett. And I always will. It doesn't mean what he did wasn't stupid, but I do feel sorry for him and how his life turned out. It's sad.
Yeah I forgot to mention, I didn't drink until age 19. That was done legally overseas. Again nothing criminal. I did have a tendency to drive a little fast though. At worst that is a violation.
It's illegal, but it's a stupid law that is commonly ignored. It will be legalized sometime in the future, once enough people who realize how dumb of a law it is get old enough.
I'm not saying it's a smart thing to do, I'm just saying it's common enough that it can't be so terrible either.
Good point. Getting DUI's or busted with pot is one thing, but Reggie stepped into big boy land when he started accepting 6 fig bribes.
Violence, guns and drug dealing are the ultimate no-no's. But the prettiest girls always get asked to the dance, bad personality or not.
Wrong is wrong and right is right. I don't see things in shades of grey very often. I can tell you this; laws are written in black and white. It does not matter what you or I think about them. Roll the dice, get caught, go to jail or turn into a snitch. I agree that marijuana is no worse than alcohol or cigs. I am a person who has strong convictions. I believe in doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do. I wish everyone was like that. I am fallible but my intentions are typically just.
I was watching CSPAN2 and they usually use blue ink to write laws in the Senate.
He has lots of baggage because he's large and so his clothes are big and he needs lots of bags to carry them.
Best thing that will happen to Duron this year will be the lack of attention from outside sources. Football will be football but Coffeyville is a long ways from being at OSU. Learning to accept life on life's terms, embrace responsibility, and take ownership of ones opportunities has more to do with growing up than anything else.
Rooting for Duron to grow the hell up. If he does - he just might find that life is not that difficult.
Samsonite?! I was way off.
Derppa Durr comes to mind.
word
mmmmmmmm...tuna
Students back then were more prepared for college than they are today. Generally, our government run, public school system sucks.
Comparing today's freshmen with an Ohio State freshmen from 1963 isn't quite fair. I wonder how many of these kids would listen to Woody today and his militaristic leadership qualities(even though they would probably benefit from them)?
I just heard on Fox News this morning, there is some school in this country, can't remember where, that is calling ALL OF IT'S SENIOR CLASS, "VALEDICTORIANS," because they "don't want to hurt anybody's feelings!"
What has happened to my country?
Really? Then why do Ohio State's admission requirements keep rising? Why are they breaking their SAT and ACT records every other year? Why are entering GPA's going up?
I not only know that high school grads are more prepared for college today than their parents, but I'd even argue that Ohio State is a far better school today than it was 40 years ago. It's not an Ivy League school, and it's not up there with Michigan, Illinois or Wisconsin...but it's making strides.
Football players, though, are another story. I think the concept of what a student athlete is has drastically changed. 40 years ago, kids playing for Woody Hayes would be lucky to have a 10 x 10 room to share with another student. Lincoln and Morrill towers were housing 16 kids a room, not the cushy 8 they are today. Football players could barely afford food, let alone plasma TV's, X-Box 360s, etc. It's a completely different environment. Our parents did not have the kind of distractions that exist today. It's a completely different student-athlete.
The Notre Dames, Northwesterns, Standfords and Vanderbilts are still graduating over 90% of their players, though. It IS possible to field a football team like that. It just turns out that those football teams are generally not competitive in today's environment. You can read into that what you will, but that's the nature of things.
Graduating classes are testing higher because more kids are applying to tOSU and it finally was able to dump its mandate to take any Ohio Student that applies. It can now pick and choose. Thats not a reflection on the quality of high schools. Thats a reflection on the Ohio Board of regents and the Sate Legislature. But nice try feeding us that left wing Teacher Union crap. High Schools are crap now compared to 35 years ago when I went. (Boy do I sound crumudgeonly) But they are. We don't teach history. At least not the same history we learned then. We don't learn the CONCEPTS of math. We teach how to pass federal tests.
Legal is legal and illegal is not. I don't know we're talking about right and wrong here. My personal moral compass is not subject to regulation by an elected body.
Now, I'll agree with you completely that breaking the law in this case is *stupid*.
Spoken like a true baby boomer. Yes, you do sound curmudgeonly (check your spelling, oh graduate-of-better-high-schools).
Tell you what, get on the horn with your spoiled generation and either a) dedicate yourselves to raising public school funding instead of padding your S.S. retirement packages, and/or b) quit the job you're getting paid too much to do and become a high school teacher.
It's your generation that's in charge of the public schools right now. If it's as effed up as you say (and it's not), then it's your fault.
unfortunately, Bucks fan, I vote in a minority party, so while I would love to change the world up here, it ain't happenin.
I am however a parent of 6 children, 3 of whom are already out of high school, so its not like I don't know what I am talking about. And they are products of a fairly highly regarded school system.
Now, if I was king, on the other hand.....
Excuses, excuses. Expect nothing less from a boomer. It doesn't matter what party is in power, if you're going to blame the reason Ohio State football players are not ready for a college curriculum on the decline of public schools, that certainly takes more than 4 years (remember the Republicans were the majority for 12 years from 1994 to 2006)...that takes decades. The baby boomers on both sides of the aisle are spoiled, greedy bastards who have sucked this nation's resources dry, and have put the financial strain on the nation's public schools. And it's only natural as you enter middle-age to say things like, "In my day, things were better." There is a problem with saying things like that - that means you guys fucked it up somewhere along the line.